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Katie23
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26-04-2008, 11:24 AM
i have serious prblems with people who smack dogs for craping on the floor etc,,,

even though i will 'smack' millie when shes been naughty, or smck nick when hes trying to rip my arm off cos he wnot do as hes told..!!! theres a line that cannot be crossed,,,, i'e the smacking when peeing on floor,, smacking when a dog wont recall or whateveretc(for that my dogs get a get here now shout, n if they wont come back, check on collar etc but not a smack

imo i think its how you are brought up,, i was smacked when naughty as a child, when i was ateen i was reasoned with as i could understand, my mum has the same views as me (or the other way round as i obv learnt off her),,

ahh im rambling now but you get my point - i hope
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Anne-Marie
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26-04-2008, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
I have trouble understanding these kinds of discussions.

Striking an animal is not the same as "beating a number of bell out of him/her. Neither shall it be used when the dog is crying or peeing / pooping on the floor. It is a last resort and should be used when required. Not because we are bad handlers, but keep in mind - exactly half of us are below average handlers. When a situation escalates beyond our ability to handle - it may become necessary. It shall then be done, without anger, swiftly and decisively! Preferably with an object suitable to create hurt, but not damage.
It is not a cop-out or an admittion of defeat, even though those against, love to claim so.

I thought this was obvious!

In my oppinion, most of the "Never never ever lot are way below average handlers. They dont face reality!

Nav
I totally disagree with this part of your statement.

When is it preferable to use an object suitable to create hurt! I would never use an object to strike my dog with and certainly when I am adminstering a scruff my intent is NEVER to hurt him. It is an action that is telling him 'you've overstepped the mark - not acceptable!"

I do agree that it is admininstered as a last resort and only when required and also that it should never be done in anger. I could count on one hand how many times I have scruffed him and found it necessary to do so.

My dog is generally very obedient and adores his training. But, being a 16mth Rottie, he has his moments every now and again and sometimes needs checked.

The whole purpose of the scruff, is to let my dog know he has gone a step too far and enough is enough. A warning if you like. He accepts this and always calms down afterwards and is more respectful and obedient.

I would never 'create hurt' as this would make my dog lose all confidence in me as a handler and justifiably so! Any handler deliberately trying to hurt their dog as a punishment is a very amature and poor handler indeed. These methods get you nowhere and you'll end up with a hand/object shy and fearful dog who is nervous. A recipie for disaster if you own a dog like mine.
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Shona
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26-04-2008, 11:34 AM
I think people have diff ideas on what a smack is,, to me a smack is a hand being lifted to strike a dog,, poss once poss more than once, it quite natural for a dog to attack the hand as it moves away from the dog, not so much on the downward whollop,. not sure why,,,
I will grab my dog and tell it off,, but there is no rapid movement of my hand the only rapid movement is me getting to the dog,,,lol
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Shona
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26-04-2008, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie View Post
That's what I do too Shona and I totally agree it works a treat!

In fact Marius got told off like that yesterday as he was in 'testing' mode in the field and decided to make a his own games up and wouldn't come back when called. He got his cheeks chucked and a very stern word from me, he was heeling like a Pro afterwards the little tink!!

I think rotties are like that,, royce used to do fab healwork when in trouble,,,making it hard to be anoyed at him,,, but they dont respond well to violence,,they would likely meet it head on,, then you have problems, but a damn good NO BAD, devistates them,,

With regards to children, to be honest I think if more of them were given the proper discipline when younger there wouldn't be the amount of ASBO's and bad behaviour we see today. I am not saying go around and hit out left, right and centre, but there is a happy medium.

A lot of todays youth have a total disregard and lack of respect for their peers. Perhaps I am old fashioned in my thinking to some, but the way I see it, if more of them got a smack for very bad behaviour as kids, they may have turned out more respectful and better rounded adults.
I always reasoned with gordon, eg,, No always had an explanation, he never really asked twice, I heard one of his palls when younger saying go in and ask again, gordon said," there is no point NO means NO in my house" I always try to be fair, hes never gave me any problems, never been in trouble {so far} he will be 18 next birthday,, he leaves school in the summer after finishing his exams {highers} so I can say not smacking has worked for me, but I have to say, I kinda brought him up like a rottie,,, consistancy is the key,,lol
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Katie23
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26-04-2008, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
I think people have diff ideas on what a smack is,, to me a smack is a hand being lifted to strike a dog,, poss once poss more than once, it quite natural for a dog to attack the hand as it moves away from the dog, not so much on the downward whollop,. not sure why,,,
I will grab my dog and tell it off,, but there is no rapid movement of my hand the only rapid movement is me getting to the dog,,,lol


my idea of a smack is ashort sharp tap on their behind, the most padded area on their ass (once only, unless they go back an re-offend!!!)

but atm the padded area on millie is all over- shes fat n is on a diet
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Anne-Marie
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26-04-2008, 11:53 AM
100% agree with you that you cannot train with violence and I would never condone such methods. They are such an independant and dominant dog it would be foolhardy to do this. I think this is when it goes wrong for some people. I am only 5' 2" and slightly built, I couldn't physically overpower him anyway, so I have to have control by other means (ie: having mutual respect) and this is how it should be.

I guess some owners who have a large breed like a Rott think there is a need to be over-physical with them to get their point across. Of course this is totally wrong, in fact they can be quite sensitive which is why as you say a damn good NO BAD devistates them!

Also agree that consistency is the key with training, as is praise & reward. There is nothing I hate more than seeing some dogs go to training class with their heads down, looking throughly miserable. My aim is to have a well trained, socialized and happy dog who is loving his training and wanting to please. You should see how much Marius enjoys himself when training, nub never stops wagging! That is when I know I've done a good job with his training
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Shona
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26-04-2008, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by suze View Post
my idea of a smack is ashort sharp tap on their behind, the most padded area on their ass (once only, unless they go back an re-offend!!!)

but atm the padded area on millie is all over- shes fat n is on a diet

awe,,,my lot love a smack on the bum,, along with a good scratch round the croup,...rotties tend to dance when you do it but its only the back legs that go,,,then swing from foot to foot with the head bending in the direction of the back foot,,,,numpty the lot of em, lol
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Shona
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26-04-2008, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie View Post
100% agree with you that you cannot train with violence and I would never condone such methods. They are such an independant and dominant dog it would be foolhardy to do this. I think this is when it goes wrong for some people. I am only 5' 2" and slightly built, I couldn't physically overpower him anyway, so I have to have control by other means (ie: having mutual respect) and this is how it should be.

I guess some owners who have a large breed like a Rott think there is a need to be over-physical with them to get their point across. Of course this is totally wrong, in fact they can be quite sensitive which is why as you say a damn good NO BAD devistates them!

Also agree that consistency is the key with training, as is praise & reward. There is nothing I hate more than seeing some dogs go to training class with their heads down, looking throughly miserable. My aim is to have a well trained, socialized and happy dog who is loving his training and wanting to please. You should see how much Marius enjoys himself when training, nub never stops wagging! That is when I know I've done a good job with his training
people often look at my lot and think I must hammer them into doing what they are told,,,, I think they are often surprised when they get to know the dogs see how easy it is to upset them, I love liberty training, it works so well with rotties,,, {liberty being free of restraint,,in this case,, not free form jail, lol }

here is a bit of vid of kaos and vinnie, I train without a lead 99.9% of the time with my lot, the vid proves how thick vinnie is,, lol, excuse the hair, oh and the fleese,, its dougies,, got caught in a shower when we got to the park,,, big frizzy head,, thank god for ghds,,lol or I would look like that all the time,

just watched it you can tell when olwen my neighbour says things like ooh I caught him doing that,,,,vinnies a special case, lol
the reason he did so much back up,,,is because its what he knows,,,,lol that and a few other bits and bobs,,but not much
http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q...uremixz223.flv
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Anne-Marie
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26-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Loved you vid Shona - made me smile watching it. Especially when you told him to 'hide his ugly face'!!! LOL

Gorgeous and a credit to you - always love to see them really enjoying their work.

I keep saying to Sid I want him to tape me working Marius, but never got round to it yet!
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Barry
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26-04-2008, 12:10 PM
aww thats a great vid! vinnie as you say has a lovely elegant 'back up'!!! Tikka heared your voice there and was nearly up on the kitchen table! LOL
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