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Moobli
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03-03-2009, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by random View Post
To be fair, the working lines don't care much for aesthetics so they are always going to look very different. A line-up of showy springers would look more similar to one another.
I think that is exactly the point. You get a massive variety of colour, coat, size, type etc with working bred border collies, as they are being bred for working ability (a bit like your example of working type springers) and not looks. Whereas if you lined up 100 show bred border collies they would almost look as though they came out of the same mould.
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Moobli
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03-03-2009, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Hali View Post
It depends what you mean by 'markings etc' in your original question. I had thought you were just asking about variation in colours, but your above post suggests you also mean overall build and general physical appearance?

You've picked out springers because they are a breed that you are particularly interested in, but in terms of colour variation, there is relatively little variation compared to other breeds, though I agree in build and other physical appearance there can be quite a wide variation.

But I think it also depends on how much notice you take of individual breeds - at one time I couldn't tell one rotti from another, but I'm now getting used to looking past the 'they're all black and tan' and seeing the difference in markings, the size/shape of the body and head.

I *think* Pidge is meaning (and correct me if I am wrong Pidge ) that there are some breeds of dog where one looks very much like another - ie I would struggle to tell one black Lab from another - ie not just colour, but general overall appearance.

I totally agree with your final paragraph Hali. As I have said above I think black Labs all look very similar, but I don't really have an interest in the breed. I think if you do take an interest in a particular breed, then you will notice the small individual aesthetics that someone not interested in the breed would miss.
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Moobli
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03-03-2009, 12:58 PM
Here is a pic of a few of our working collies together. We have a mix of colour and coat length, as well as overall appearance. Although, as these are working dogs, you tend to find most shepherds/farmers keep the *standard* colours of black/white and tricolour. There are a few red/white but not that many working merles or blues.

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maxine
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03-03-2009, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by random View Post
To be fair, the working lines don't care much for aesthetics so they are always going to look very different. A line-up of showy springers would look more similar to one another.

This is so true. We had a working and a show Springer at the same time. The show dog (at the front of the photo) had very long legs and was very elegant, but he was so unlike a Springer. He was not interested in flushing out game, just looking for interesting litter he could eat. The other chap at the back was a busy, honest, working dog that had very short legs.

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labradork
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03-03-2009, 01:32 PM
This is so true. We had a working and a show Springer at the same time. The show dog (at the front of the photo) had very long legs and was very elegant, but he was so unlike a Springer. He was not interested in flushing out game, just looking for interesting litter he could eat. The other chap at the back was a busy, honest, working dog that had very short legs.
Interesting. Because based on looks alone, I would have said the dog in the front looked working bred.

I find Springers to be a odd bunch. I love them, but their characters are SO different -- at least, that is what I notice around here. Some are frantically sniffing the undergrowth from start to finish of the walk, while others could care less. We have some fearful ones here that cower and hide behind their owners legs, and some that are fear aggressive. Same for any breed though I suppose, but I notice a wide difference in temperament the most in Springers.

Sorry, off topic...back to your regularly scheduled viewing.
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mishflynn
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03-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Got to be the Border collies!!!!

Look here!!!

http://www.colliecorner.com/
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maxine
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03-03-2009, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Interesting. Because based on looks alone, I would have said the dog in the front looked working bred.

I find Springers to be a odd bunch. I love them, but their characters are SO different -- at least, that is what I notice around here. Some are frantically sniffing the undergrowth from start to finish of the walk, while others could care less. We have some fearful ones here that cower and hide behind their owners legs, and some that are fear aggressive. Same for any breed though I suppose, but I notice a wide difference in temperament the most in Springers.

Sorry, off topic...back to your regularly scheduled viewing.
I have found another photo of the dog in question. He was the size of a small lab. The fact that I clipped him might make him look more workmanlike .

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Pidge
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03-03-2009, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
I *think* Pidge is meaning (and correct me if I am wrong Pidge ) that there are some breeds of dog where one looks very much like another - ie I would struggle to tell one black Lab from another - ie not just colour, but general overall appearance.

I totally agree with your final paragraph Hali. As I have said above I think black Labs all look very similar, but I don't really have an interest in the breed. I think if you do take an interest in a particular breed, then you will notice the small individual aesthetics that someone not interested in the breed would miss.
Yes, that's right Moobs, but Hali raises a VERY valid point which actually almost concludes this thread imo ;o)

Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Interesting. Because based on looks alone, I would have said the dog in the front looked working bred.

I find Springers to be a odd bunch. I love them, but their characters are SO different -- at least, that is what I notice around here. Some are frantically sniffing the undergrowth from start to finish of the walk, while others could care less. We have some fearful ones here that cower and hide behind their owners legs, and some that are fear aggressive. Same for any breed though I suppose, but I notice a wide difference in temperament the most in Springers.

Sorry, off topic...back to your regularly scheduled viewing.
I would have said exactly the same (about the picture) especially because Woody is from a long line of workers and FTCH but has VERY long legs and long, lean body. He looks very show when he drops his ears too AND he's HUGE! He's the same size as most fully grown workers at 6 months!

Also agree about the temperaments which is why I don't think people who have had problem springers in the past should tarnish them all with the same brush. During our research we heard of cases where they have been very fearful and jumpy, bouncing off the walls, temperamental, fear aggressive, focused on nothing but either ball or ground. Luckily Woody is not like this at all but I wonder if part of it is not just breeding (his last two lines were non working, happy, calm pets) but the way we have raised/trained him. I'm prob going off topic now but we made sure we introduced him to things that might cause all of this asap and he is now great off the lead, loves his ball but knows when to stop, loves his walks but knows when to come back and to chill in the house and is great with all ages of children. The only things I would say are a problem with him is the chewing if left alone in the house, the whining he sometimes does at night and the fact that he is so bloody clever we have to predict his every move, almost before he does!! Oh, he's also VERY easily distracted (just like Mum).

So, back on topic now.......this is very interesting guys ;o)
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maxine
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03-03-2009, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=Pidge;1620556]

I would have said exactly the same (about the picture) especially because Woody is from a long line of workers and FTCH but has VERY long legs and long, lean body. He looks very show when he drops his ears too AND he's HUGE! He's the same size as most fully grown workers at 6 months!



You could well be right. They were both rescue dogs from a very young age and we accepted what far more knowledgable people than us, said about them.
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Pidge
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03-03-2009, 09:12 PM
Hey, I'm no expert. In fact I'm off to research it now but the only true definition I know about the difference between show and worker if the shape of the head and the length of the ears. Rounded and longer in the show.
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