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Gnasher
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10-09-2012, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Velvetboxers View Post
One of the "not so often" times when I agree with your post


there's always a first time for everything!!
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Velvetboxers
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11-09-2012, 01:57 AM
I an a Fox lover/ admirer, beautiful creatures who have adapted to survive as man continues to spread out & take over their habitat.

I do feel for the Poster, for the loss of livestock, i too would be gutted. There probably isnt any answer.

Suggesting bringing back fox hunting isnt even worth a reply!
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Gnasher
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11-09-2012, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Velvetboxers View Post
I an a Fox lover/ admirer, beautiful creatures who have adapted to survive as man continues to spread out & take over their habitat.

I do feel for the Poster, for the loss of livestock, i too would be gutted. There probably isnt any answer.

Suggesting bringing back fox hunting isnt even worth a reply!
I myself have suffered livestock loss at the paws of Charlie. When we lived up on the Wirral, we had a duck pond with several pairs of exotic and semi-exotic breeds. They had an electrified tennis court-type fence all the way around of some 5 foot high plus to keep out the foxes. The current was left on permanently, only been turned off to allow us to open the gate, and then turned on again. I see little point in making a huge fuss about this, as devastating as it is to lose much-loved friends. To the fox the plump ducks were an easy and welcome meal. Unless you are going to eradicate every single fox in the country, there is little point in waging war on the culprit because there will be plenty more to move in on his patch if you shoot him, poison him or hunt him down. All you can do is to ensure that he and his mates are kept out by taking the appropriate action.

Similarly with badgers - to me, whether or not they spread TB in cattle (and I believe they do), it would be absolutely impossible to eradicate every single badger in the whole of England, Wales & Scotland. "Controlling" them is impossible, bearing in mind their range. Far better is to breed TB-resistant cattle ... in other words, roll with the punches. We are the most intelligent species on the planet ... it is about time that we started behaving as such and using our brains to work with nature, rather than trying to control or eradicate it the whole time. I am desperately sympathetic with farmers who have pedigree herds wiped out, or whole flocks of poultry destroyed seemingly randomly by foxes (foxes actually do not wipe out a whole hen house for fun, if left alone they will actually come back and retrieve all the carcases one by one to store in some safe place, just like a dog with a bone).

To me there is no such thing as "vermin", or "vicious killers". Rats, mice, rabbits, foxes, badgers, human beings, we are all trying to achieve one thing ... to live long enough and successfully enough to be able to mate and pass on our genes.
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Tarimoor
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11-09-2012, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Baileys Blind View Post
Any animal you own can potentially do you damage, it's a chance you take when you decide to share your life with them.
What is wrong with trying to protect the ones you have and love??
Absolutely nothing, which is why controlling numbers of foxes is imo, essential. Particularly as they have no natural predators other than us, not only does hunting foxes control numbers, but it ensures the remaining population has less chance of spreading disease, and maintains a healthy fear of man.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
All animals have their place apart from foxes-they're an indiscriminate killer.Unfortunately,if you keep poultry and rabbits etc you will always be a target for them and its only a matter of time before you get hit.I've had my hens all killed several times and it makes no difference how tall fences are because they will still find a way in.

Dont get me wrong,i have every respect for foxes because no other animal can adapt its lifestyle so easily and they *are* a smart animal,but they are also a pest.I shoot several dozen a year around a few farms and i still dont think thats enough.
Lots of animals adapt easily, not just foxes, cockroaches spring to mind and I'm sure no-one would have a problem controlling numbers of cockroaches. But then they're not fluffy and cute

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I fail to understand why any human being should be outraged, surprised or upset by foxes killing chooks, pet rabbits, or any other human "pet". Just like all intelligent mammalian species they are struggling to survive, breed and pass on their healthy genes to the next generation. Just like with us humans, if an easy meal comes their way they will jump at the chance. I would not have a problem with Charlie breaking into my hen coop and slaughtering all my beautiful hens. I would not like it, but I would accept it as the pattern of nature, the survival of the fittest. I would learn from the experience and say to myself that I should have better fences, better security, and do something about it.

I love all animals, I hate to kill anything, although I am not a veggie and believe that we need to eat meat to be healthy. I am perfectly prepared to kill an animal to feed myself and my own, I do not mind my dogs killing wildlife because that is natural ... as a human being I personally do not understand anyone killing for pleasure, but to kill to feed oneself and one's family to me is perfectly acceptable. That is all the fox is doing, killing to feed himself and his family. I am not sure that the fox may gain pleasure in killing and go on a seemingly blood-lustful spree and murder a whole chicken coop ... I personally believe that, given the chance, he will come back and remove the carcases to store for future use. But lets take the scenario that the fox IS a vicious killer, murdering just for the pleasure of killing - is this not the same as man going out on pheasant or grouse shoots and blasting away at flushed-up game just for the pleasure of the kill?
Foxes are not struggling to survive, they are thriving, in huge numbers, so much so they've become less fearful of humans because their lives are so easy, something that's been allowed to happen because of the fluffy brigade (call me old fashioned but I'm getting to the point where I fail to be able to call them anything else). What's the difference between your dogs killing wildlife, and humans killing foxes? Do you think the fox understands and perceives the difference? Do you think hunting foxes makes their life any different than their day to day struggle (as you put it) for survival? Or do you think they understand there's a hunting ban in place so feel safe popping out and about to take our chooks and pets from under our noses?

One thing I cannot understand or condone is the expenditure put into raising/treating foxes to release into the wild, when there is a surplus of foxes in the countryside already, and many are simply shot pretty much straight after being released, they have no appropriate instincts to survive in rural habitats and for me it is cruel to release them with a vague fuzzy feeling that you're making the world better by doing so.
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11-09-2012, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Tarimoor View Post
Absolutely nothing, which is why controlling numbers of foxes is imo, essential. Particularly as they have no natural predators other than us, not only does hunting foxes control numbers, but it ensures the remaining population has less chance of spreading disease, and maintains a healthy fear of man.



Lots of animals adapt easily, not just foxes, cockroaches spring to mind and I'm sure no-one would have a problem controlling numbers of cockroaches. But then they're not fluffy and cute



Foxes are not struggling to survive, they are thriving, in huge numbers, so much so they've become less fearful of humans because their lives are so easy, something that's been allowed to happen because of the fluffy brigade (call me old fashioned but I'm getting to the point where I fail to be able to call them anything else). What's the difference between your dogs killing wildlife, and humans killing foxes? Do you think the fox understands and perceives the difference? Do you think hunting foxes makes their life any different than their day to day struggle (as you put it) for survival? Or do you think they understand there's a hunting ban in place so feel safe popping out and about to take our chooks and pets from under our noses?

One thing I cannot understand or condone is the expenditure put into raising/treating foxes to release into the wild, when there is a surplus of foxes in the countryside already, and many are simply shot pretty much straight after being released, they have no appropriate instincts to survive in rural habitats and for me it is cruel to release them with a vague fuzzy feeling that you're making the world better by doing so.
Couldn't of put it better myself.
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spot
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11-09-2012, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Bodhi View Post
If someone set up a chocolate cake and my favourite crisps in a coop, and I had hungry babies to feed, damn right I'd break in!!!

Wild animals being wild (one of our FEW native species at that) need to be respected and admired for what they are, and their cunning.

If we can't outsmart a fox, then well... Let's face it, maybe it's time to consider industrial strength steel and concrete foundations.

I have to side with the foxes on this one - they're pretty clever (aren't all clever things a bit annoying!!). They're just acting in their best interests.
Liking your thinking there!

Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Oh for gods sake some of these posts are ridiculous, I thin when you have small stock in a reinforced wire coope, with all doors with three bolts on, and right next to your house you do not really expect it to be broken into in broad daylight. And let's clarify it was nothing about "not outsmarting" the bloody vermin, or "not protecting" what choose to keep, the fox had done what they tend too with coop situations, worked away at mangling a spot until its weakened and the burst through. But hey ho apparently inbred reinforced steel. I'm not surprised by half of the posts here, frankly it's just ridiculous but one has come to expect no better really . Foxes are vermin, and the ones round here are exhibiting bizzare behaviour which seems to stem from the fact we are grossly over populated with them and have been post hunting ban, they aren't glorious creatures for the main round here they are scraggly looking things tht are too over populated of one area thus come and pester me and my neighbours! Realism is a great thing sometimes. Oh, look i can be a patronising and condescending individual too.
You feel some opinions on here are ridiculous and thats your perogative - others may feel that your opinions are equally as ridiculous. I dont understand why your opinion (which is all it is) is any better than any other and if you expected it on here why get so upset by them?
I do agree with your last statement though.
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spot
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11-09-2012, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
We live by lots of open fields and such so tis to be expected, but their behaviour is very bizzare lately.

Originally Posted by Steve View Post
All animals have their place apart from foxes-they're an indiscriminate killer..
Originally Posted by Collie Convert View Post
Bringing back fox hunting would be a start.
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The reason urban foxes look so bad Luke is because often they're elderly and have mange.In the countryside they would have died a natural death due to not being able to hunt efficently,but in suburbia they get to live off our waste,kill pets/poultry and misguided people feeding them.

Since the hunting ban though,more foxes than ever are trapped and shot yet the population seems to be going up.I work at night in various towns and cities and the amount i see is unbelievable.

I suppose it could be worse.You could be an unlucky suburban fox,get picked up by the RSPCA,get treated for mange/worms/fleas and have a tracking tag collar fitted then get dumped in the unfamiliar countryside-then get shot very soon after.
Originally Posted by IsoChick View Post
So sorry to read this...

I am fairly lucky in that I live close by a game hatchery... they are very good at spotting and shooting foxes, and have some lovely boys on quads with guns who will come over and get rid of Mr Fox when necessary...
So foxes shouldnt be in towns, shouldnt be in areas of open spaces, shouldnt be anywhere near farms, shouldnt be anywhere birds are being bred to be shot, shouldnt be anywhere near nesting ground birds.

They should be shot in the town, shot in the countryside - just where the hell should the live or should they just not live at all?

As for the bring back hunting brigade - how come when the talk was of bringing the ban in all the hunts in the land were saying we dont kill many and then only the sick and old
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Gnasher
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11-09-2012, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Tarimoor View Post
Absolutely nothing, which is why controlling numbers of foxes is imo, essential. Particularly as they have no natural predators other than us, not only does hunting foxes control numbers, but it ensures the remaining population has less chance of spreading disease, and maintains a healthy fear of man.

the arrogance of humans never ceases to amaze me! who are you or me to have the right to control another species!? I accept everything you say about spreading disease but I don't accept that human beings have the right to dictate over other species what they do or do not do as a "right".

Lots of animals adapt easily, not just foxes, cockroaches spring to mind and I'm sure no-one would have a problem controlling numbers of cockroaches. But then they're not fluffy and cute

Please do not accuse me of being a bunny hugger. I am not. I come from a farming family - hunting, fishing and shooting is endemic in my genes. I may be an animal lover, but I am not stupid. I am realistic.

Foxes are not struggling to survive, they are thriving, in huge numbers, so much so they've become less fearful of humans because their lives are so easy, something that's been allowed to happen because of the fluffy brigade (call me old fashioned but I'm getting to the point where I fail to be able to call them anything else). What's the difference between your dogs killing wildlife, and humans killing foxes? Do you think the fox understands and perceives the difference? Do you think hunting foxes makes their life any different than their day to day struggle (as you put it) for survival? Or do you think they understand there's a hunting ban in place so feel safe popping out and about to take our chooks and pets from under our noses?

I will defend to the death the right of any animal - whether it be fox, dog, human, whatever - to defend their own, to kill to survive, to kill or be killed. I actually have no problem with hunting foxes with hounds - if there is a level playing field. But there is not. Round here, they used to block up all the earths and disused badger setts so that the foxes could not go to ground. To me, that is bad sportsmanship. That to me is non-sporting. To my understanding, a healthy fox is more than capable of outwitting a pack of fox hounds, but there must be a level playing field. It is this plus the fact that hounds will not kill a fox cleanly that makes me an anti. I fully understand about mangy foxes, that is a natural consequence of a burgeoning fox population ... but it is us humans who are rocking the boat and causing un-natural fluxes in population and therefore we are responsible for the consequences.

One thing I cannot understand or condone is the expenditure put into raising/treating foxes to release into the wild, when there is a surplus of foxes in the countryside already, and many are simply shot pretty much straight after being released, they have no appropriate instincts to survive in rural habitats and for me it is cruel to release them with a vague fuzzy feeling that you're making the world better by doing so.
I agree entirely. with this last paragraph. What a load of tosh is that to release foxes into the wild that are neither prepared nor adapted to cope ... that is just plain cruel and madness. That is using them. Whereas I might disagree that there is a surplus of foxes in the countryside (towns are a different matter), I can see nothing to be gained by releasing captive-raised foxes back into the wild. That is just a recipe for disaster from the foxes' point of view as well as human.
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Velvetboxers
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11-09-2012, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by spot View Post
So foxes shouldnt be in towns, shouldnt be in areas of open spaces, shouldnt be anywhere near farms, shouldnt be anywhere birds are being bred to be shot, shouldnt be anywhere near nesting ground birds.

They should be shot in the town, shot in the countryside - just where the hell should the live or should they just not live at all?

As for the bring back hunting brigade - how come when the talk was of bringing the ban in all the hunts in the land were saying we dont kill many and then only the sick and old
Good post Spot
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Tarimoor
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12-09-2012, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I agree entirely. with this last paragraph. What a load of tosh is that to release foxes into the wild that are neither prepared nor adapted to cope ... that is just plain cruel and madness. That is using them. Whereas I might disagree that there is a surplus of foxes in the countryside (towns are a different matter), I can see nothing to be gained by releasing captive-raised foxes back into the wild. That is just a recipe for disaster from the foxes' point of view as well as human.
Apologies as the quote hasn't picked up all of your responses so I'm scrolling down to respond.

What arrogance? We are the prime species in the world, is it arrogance to ensure the survival of all species by culling a few? In our past arrogance we chose to unbalance eco systems and drive some species to the edge of existence simply for the fun of shooting every living thing. It is not arrogance to evolve and learn that all things have a place in balance with each other, and where we have created imbalance to restore it, to think otherwise is simply naieve, wild animals don't live and let live, a fox won't make the conscious decision to starve itself to death because they are too numerous as a species overall. And let's not also miss the point that should a fox be predated on by another animal, and it's unlikely another predator would eat a fox but would kill it because it's competition, no-one would have a problem, but to cull fox numbers to ensure they remain in balance with their surroundings is somehow the devil's work.

I haven't said you specifically are a bunny hugger, but the art of bunny hugging is most definitely alive and well, with people allowing their emotions and perceived feelings about fluffy animals to intervene with common sense, even to the point where they will contradict good conservation simply to push for the right of all cute and fluffy animals to live.

You haven't actually answered how the life of the fox has changed since the hunting ban was put in place, which is a ridiculous piece of unenforceable legislation, where thousands of pounds have been wasted. You've simply put a lot of things about how you don't like foxhunting with hounds in your area. I'm not actually for or against hunting but the idea that it's made a change in the quality of life foxes have overall is simply foundless. Foxes still live and die with much of their lives spent evading what they perceive as a threat. In other words they still live with fear as part of their life, as all truly wild animals do, it's a healthy part of their flight mechanism.

At least we agree on something though, I can't remember which magazine this article is from but makes for interesting reading:



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