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Malka
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01-11-2014, 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by halfpenny View Post
...[snip]...Women do not get neutered but do pump their bodies full of chemicals to prevent pregnancy.
Not forgetting tubal ligations for women - and vasectomies for men.
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Wolfwitch
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02-11-2014, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by halfpenny View Post
I often find it funny that people who are against neutering their dogs, would still happily neuter their cats, castrate stallions and any other potentially difficult male animal.
Women do not get neutered but do pump their bodies full of chemicals to prevent pregnancy.
Luckily for humans pregnancy can be avoided while still having sex and an awful lot more effort goes into saving them if they get any type of reproductive ( or any other) cancer.
I have 13 rescue dogs here, I dread to think what kind of damage would occur with fighting and doubt I could keep them all together of they were not neutered.

I recently took in 2 old Shetland pony stallions ( one is 21 and one is 34), they are too old to neuter but its a nightmare keeping them away from any mares and every time they go out we have a dominance struggle. I know dogs are not the same but if the theory is we do not neuter because its only at our convenience (which is true ) many animals would either spend their lives locked up or culled as its too impractical to keep them entire.
Good point, well made!
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JoedeeUK
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02-11-2014, 12:16 PM
Spaying females prevents pyrometra which is a common condition in bitches regardless of whether they have been bred from or not, however castrating males increases the development of prostate cancer & bone cancer(not hearsay from scientific research).

Pre pubescent neutering prevents timeous closure of the growth plates in both dogs & bitches & is directly linked to incontinency in young bitches.

I'm not anti neutering of dogs, just anti forced early neutering & forced neutering for males that are never going to reproduce themselves, because they belong to responsible owners.

You cannot compare dogs & cats as entire cats that are not kept as indoor cats permanently & to allow an entire cat freedom will lead to unplanned kittens. Entire toms become aggressive & territorial if they are allowed freedom & far more likely to get involved in fights. Cats are far least domesticated than dogs & close to their wild ancestors.

As for entire male horses they are very hard to handle & of course mares are not neutered are they !

BTW woman & men do get neutered & sometimes by choice !
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halfpenny
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02-11-2014, 02:07 PM
Sorry, somehow posted before I'd finished writing. Fat fingers and small phone!
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lovemybull
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02-11-2014, 02:07 PM
Kind of an amusing side note while we're on the subject of altering. I adopted Callie as an adult, age unknown...probably about a year or two old at the time. The last phase of the adoption process was the shelter dropping him off to be neutered and my picking him up that afternoon. As he walked in front of me the day before I couldn't help but notice his...uh hem...um...well let's just say that many males, human or canine would be quite proud of themselves, such was his visible manhood.

I brought him home the following afternoon. A bit woozy and a bit tight in his walking for a few days but otherwise he recovered beautifully. However from the back Callie is fairly androgynous now. We went visiting on Halloween night and someone asked me " Is Callie a boy?". Even being built like a tank it's not so obvious anymore. I actually read in the dog press one time that they make cosmetic silicone enhancement for male dogs who have been altered. Certainly marketed with the owners sensibility in mind, I'm sure it isn't a big whoop to the dog .
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halfpenny
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02-11-2014, 02:15 PM
Mares are not neutered due to high anaesthetic risks, not for any other reason ( except probably cost), many mares are very hormonal but its just something owners have to live with and there is less risk of them getting pregnant as most males are gelded.
I think i can compare cats when I am discussing neutering for human convenience, although it also tends to lengthen lifespan too.

As far as I understand neutering does not increase the risk of prostrate tumours but it does increase the risk of it being malignant, however the only dog I've had who developed prostrate cancer was our entire lab, who was 14 when we discovered it. In honesty, by 14 something has got to kill them, only PLT was keeping him moving anyway.
I work in a vet and prostrate tumours are something we don't see much of. Mammary cancer, pyometras, unwanted pregnancies, yes..... Lots of them.
Neutering does massively reduce the risk of mammary cancer, its reduced hugely if done before the first season, less so after.
I agree that castration has less health benefits but the fact are few people are responsible or educated when it comes to pet dogs, often people don't want the dog castrated and when the dog is 2 its humping and aggressive with other entire dogs and they want it 'fixed', unfortunately it's too late because the behaviour has been learned. Sure responsible, knowledgable owners are great and entitled to do what they want but I think it's better to encourage the general public to neuter both sexes to prevent the various issues caused by untrained, pet entire dogs.
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JoedeeUK
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02-11-2014, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by halfpenny View Post
As far as I understand neutering does not increase the risk of prostrate tumours but it does increase the risk of it being malignant, however the only dog I've had who developed prostrate cancer was our entire lab, who was 14 when we discovered it. In honesty, by 14 something has got to kill them, only PLT was keeping him moving anyway.
I work in a vet and prostrate tumours are something we don't see much of. Mammary cancer, pyometras, unwanted pregnancies, yes..... Lots of them.
Neutering does massively reduce the risk of mammary cancer, its reduced hugely if done before the first season, less so after.
I agree that castration has less health benefits but the fact are few people are responsible or educated when it comes to pet dogs, often people don't want the dog castrated and when the dog is 2 its humping and aggressive with other entire dogs and they want it 'fixed', unfortunately it's too late because the behaviour has been learned. Sure responsible, knowledgable owners are great and entitled to do what they want but I think it's better to encourage the general public to neuter both sexes to prevent the various issues caused by untrained, pet entire dogs.
Humped is not stopped by castration either pre or post puberty.

Education of ALL dog owners is crucial, invasive surgery will never replace education
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halfpenny
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02-11-2014, 08:47 PM
I would not consider castration invasive surgey, but a bitch spay is.
However I do agree that education has a big part to play, and going back to the original question, educating owners and the public in the countries we were orginally talking about would go a long way to improving the lives of dogs across there, along with neutering, which is why I feel money would be much better used if it was sent across to help all dogs, rather than one being imported to Britain.
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sandgrubber
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03-11-2014, 06:26 PM
Here's a vet opinion on the subject of spay/neuter that I really like. The article being reviewed found the pros and cons were different, statistically speaking, for Labradors and golden retrievers. The main point is the health-related costs and benefits are variable, and may be different even for closely related breeds. So there's room for a variety of positions.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2014/07/pot...or-retrievers/

On the 'import' question, I'd guess the UK exports many more dogs than it imports. It certainly exports a lot of semen. At least that's how it looks when you live in Australia or the USA. I don't think dogs care at all about international borders. Seems reasonable to import for diversification of bloodlines, or rescue from horrid situations, or rescue where you want a breed not often found in rescue in the UK.
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