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SarahJade
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Location: West Yorkshire
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13-04-2015, 07:14 PM
I totally agree that some would be right to rehome him to someone more experienced at this point.
When I lived at home we adopted a spaniel, but had to take him back after he started biting out of fear. We couldn't risk it with a young child in the house (my sister was about 6).
If it would have just been my dad and I then we would have kept going, we had help from a behaviourist but obviously these things are never an overnight fix.

I don't wish to put you off but for the sake of the dog you do need to have a real talk with your hubby to decide if you both still want to stick with him. I don't want to cause any ill feelings or guilt, but if he really does start to bond with you both and bites again and your hubby or you decides enough is enough then he's going to be completely heartbroken again to be separated.

Does the breeder or the fosterer not have any input? Does he have history of biting? Are they aware of any triggers that you could avoid until you have a behaviourist to help you?
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Gnasher
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13-04-2015, 08:01 PM
I really hope that AA answers my question re the biting ... high % wolf crosses in common with pure wolves do love to give what I call "wolf kisses". Bruce's mother, a pure wolf living in an enclosure loved to approach you from behind and take the meatiest part of one's bum cheek between her front teeth and nibble! It hurt like hell and left a bruise but did not break the skin certainly through jeans; I am wondering whether AA's dog is just playing rough rather than actually biting? The dog has not been properly socialised, he has no idea of interacting with humans and as a wolf cross this is potentially very serious. Wolves are not born with an innate fear of humans - bipeds. The fear of bipeds kicks in at 3 weeks of age, which is why with high % wolf crosses it is essential really to take them away from mum at 3 weeks; this sounds cruel, but it isn't because at 3 weeks high % and pure wolves are ready and able to eat meat and leave their mother. We did not collect Bruce until he was 9 weeks, and therefore his fear of all 2 legged creatures that walk upright had well and truly kicked in. He was fine with us after 3 days, but no-one else. Man on tractor - fine, no problem. Man on motorbike, again no problem. Man on horse, fine. Man walking on 2 legs - terrifying and totally scarey! And it is virtually impossible to cure them of this innate fear of man.

I would doubt it is too late for this little man, but if he is biting meaning to draw blood, then AA has a problem. I would love to hear!
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Awaiting Abyss
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14-04-2015, 03:59 AM
Sorry for taking so long to reply. I view the responses on my phone, but its annoying to respond in detail using my phone so I wait until I can use my computer.

Two of the bites have drawn blood; one of which was a bite that happened yesterday. The very first bite (the one that involved the cat) didn't draw blood but created a blood blister on my husband's hand.

Yesterday the bites could have been avoided.... It was morning, and I hadn't gotten out of bed yet, but my husband had just gotten up. Rarity, my dachshund, had gotten sick and left little mess piles in various places in the room. Kazuto (we've decided this will be his new name) sat in one so he had Rarity's mess on his side and as soon as my husband got out of bed, he jumped up and lied down in his spot. My husband told him to get down and he didn't listen, so he picked him up... Normally Kaz has no issue being picked up. My husband has done this several times before and it doesn't bother him. This time Kazuto nipped my husband's arm (it didn't draw blood). My husband shouted and put him on the floor and he lied down. I could not see if Kazuto apologized or not, but my husband says he didn't (though he does not know body language nearly as well as I do so I'm not sure). My husband then lightly nudged him with his foot to try to get him up (not sure why) and Kazuto bit his leg and drew blood.
Then when it was time for us to leave for work, my husband took him outside to the enclosure to put him in it. He rested his hand on Kazuto's head and he nipped his arm (without drawing blood).

I was told that he was taken from his mother and bottle fed... but I can't recall at what age... 2 weeks, 3 weeks or 4 weeks.. I'm not sure which it was. I do remember that the breeder kept him until 12 weeks for socialization.

As a response to handing him over to someone more experienced...
I'm experienced with wolfdogs, but not with rescues. All of my past dogs have been puppies when I got them. So am I just never supposed to get a rescue dog and just get puppies from now on because I'm not experienced?

I don't want to give up on him. He is very loving and has yet to harm me, Rarity or Mari (my malamute). He is actually extremely gentle with Rarity.
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Gnasher
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14-04-2015, 06:11 AM
OK AA, thanks very much for your post. If Kazuto was taken off his mum and bottle fed at around 3 weeks then that is good from the point of view of being able to overcome most of the fear of humans on 2 legs. However, this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of socialising in public with other humans, dogs, public places etc. etc.

We presumably don't know because he is a rescue, but you say he was very thin when you got him so one has to assume that his early socialisation was either non-existent or insufficient. It is interesting that the only time he drew blood was when your husband nudged him with his foot. This is an absolute no-no with regard to a wolf cross, who would regard this as an unnecessary attack and would respond as Kazuto has done, with his teeth --- and drew blood as a consequence, he didn't mean or want to hurt your husband, this was just a warning ... it does not worry me in terms of Kazuto being unsafe, just scared, traumatised and terrified of being hurt as he undoubtedly has been in the past.

He is by no means a lost cause, you have got a window of opportunity here. Whereas I am at the stage now after 4 years where I can nudge Ben with my knee aka Caesar Millan when he jumps up at me and starts to get rough, I would never use my foot to nudge him. He has been trodden on purposely in the past, as maybe Kazuto has, judging by his response. Picking him up again was not a good idea. If you are unable to get Kazuto off the bed by voice command and assertive body posture, at this stage do not try and drag him. With Ben we used to get behind him when we wanted him to get off the bed, the garden table etc. and with a gentle hand encourage him down, helped by someone calling him from the front end. If he turns on the gentle hand encouraging him, the owner of that hand will have time to avoid the teeth, but it is my bet that he will not. Ben at his very worst never turned in such a situation.

None of my wolf crosses have liked being picked up. The only one we could was Hal, Ben's father, who we had from 8 weeks old - and he would growl in complaint whenever we picked him up! Because he was starved food titbits may be a good way to get him down off the bed, although my personal view is not in favour of food treats. But in this case it may be the way forward.

So, to sum up, stick with the lad he will come good. Be very careful to keep yourself and your husband safe. The rule of the day is gently gently, do not challenge but make Kazuto understand that you and your husband are alpha male and female and he can trust you and rely on you to keep him safe. So therefore, certainly at this stage no nudging, only use the hand to touch him and make sure he always knows your hand is there, no surprises, and let him sniff your hand and know that it is about to do something before it does it! A slow, low tone of voice is very soothing, coupled with an ear massage. Ben had a habit in the early days of showing his blunt tooth as a warning when we were stroking his head or ears, and I would stop my fingers moving, hold up my index finger against his lip and say in a slightly stronger tone "Ben, no!" He would roll his eyes at me and look apologetic and the tooth would disappear back under his lip! The very fact that he had threatened me, but that I had demonstrated to him firmly but fairly that his behaviour was unnacceptable, by the use of one finger, is what calm assertiveness is all about; it is this type of gentle control that you and your husband need to start exerting.

Very gently, slowly, there is no rush. What to do if Kazuto still nips? Do not of course shout at him or use any sort of violent response. Tell him firmly Kazuto, No! And then ignore him but keep him in your presence, for example, sit down and watch television, or take up a book. He will more than likely come to you and in his own way apologise. Ben does this by sitting on your feet with his back to you, or when he bit my husband, he came and licked him.

Apologies for this long and rambly post - I am getting it done before I leave for work - but do keep us posted. I am rooting for Kazuto and you all!

I am hoping that Musher might comment on this thread. He has far more experience with northern breeds and wolf crosses than I, and can probably be far more helpful and offer loads of good personal advice.
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mjfromga
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14-04-2015, 08:01 AM
So am I just never supposed to get a rescue dog and just get puppies from now on because I'm not experienced?
No, but this is what I do. I'm not experienced with rescues and we had to give one back after we were unable to get him to get along with our current dog. I've admitted that rescues are not where I'm strong and as I'm trying to do what is best for everyone involved, I adopt puppies instead. There is great advice here, and I'm wishing you the best. Since he's not attacking everyone, I think that there is hope if you take your time and work with a trainer. I just hope everyone stays safe in the meantime.
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Dibbythedog
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14-04-2015, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss View Post
As a response to handing him over to someone more experienced...
I'm experienced with wolfdogs, but not with rescues. All of my past dogs have been puppies when I got them. So am I just never supposed to get a rescue dog and just get puppies from now on because I'm not experienced?

I don't want to give up on him. He is very loving and has yet to harm me, Rarity or Mari (my malamute). He is actually extremely gentle with Rarity.
I think you need to work on your husband and how he handles him. You have set an example of how to manage you dog without getting bitten and I hope he can be persuaded to follow it .
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Strangechilde
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14-04-2015, 12:21 PM
Hi AA! Thanks for your reply. I can barely read on my phone, much less compose on it.

What Gnasher said. I agree all down the line.

Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss View Post
So am I just never supposed to get a rescue dog and just get puppies from now on because I'm not experienced?
Absolutely not. Someone with your level of experience and dedication-- you're the very ideal person for a rescue dog. My little piece of advice: remember that, while dogs are shaped by their past, they do not live in it. Dogs (and wolfdogs) live fully and completely in the now. You can't know about or compensate for whatever happened before. You can only take what you've got, right now, and go forward. So you be the consistent, caring, loving owner that you are, and Kazuto will come to live with you in your now. It'll take time-- it always does with rescues, and there may be some hangups you can't fix, or not easily. Don't dwell on them. Accept, and with the thing in your mind, think: 'Okay, this. Now what?' Never backwards, always ahead. You're Kazuto's reality now. I think he's pretty lucky.

I love the name, BTW.
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Dibbythedog
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14-04-2015, 12:41 PM
That isa lovely post , Strangechilde. Agree about dogs living in the present and responding to what is happening around in that moment.

I'd just like to add that dogs store memories of past incidences like we do and while they dont contemplate their navel like we do, certain situations will trigger off that memory and they will react to it.
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chlosmum
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14-04-2015, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
That isa lovely post , Strangechilde. Agree about dogs living in the present and responding to what is happening around in that moment.

I'd just like to add that dogs store memories of past incidences like we do and while they dont contemplate their navel like we do, certain situations will trigger off that memory and they will react to it.
I can vouch for that. From the age of 4 months to 13 months, Georgina my Shar-Pei had 5 eye operations. She's now 20 months old and hasn't been to the vets for months, but she's only got to see a man wearing a white tee shirt or overall, (like our vet does), and she quickly becomes upset. Yesterday my next door neighbour was gardening when her son, whom she's known since she was a puppy, arrived wearing a white overall which caused Georgina a great deal of anxiety and she only calmed down again once he'd driven off in his car. I'm quite certain in her mind she associates man + white clothes = vet = pain!
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Jackie
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14-04-2015, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss View Post
Sorry for taking so long to reply. I view the responses on my phone, but its annoying to respond in detail using my phone so I wait until I can use my computer.

Two of the bites have drawn blood; one of which was a bite that happened yesterday. The very first bite (the one that involved the cat) didn't draw blood but created a blood blister on my husband's hand.

Yesterday the bites could have been avoided.... It was morning, and I hadn't gotten out of bed yet, but my husband had just gotten up. Rarity, my dachshund, had gotten sick and left little mess piles in various places in the room. Kazuto (we've decided this will be his new name) sat in one so he had Rarity's mess on his side and as soon as my husband got out of bed, he jumped up and lied down in his spot. My husband told him to get down and he didn't listen, so he picked him up... Normally Kaz has no issue being picked up. My husband has done this several times before and it doesn't bother him. This time Kazuto nipped my husband's arm (it didn't draw blood). My husband shouted and put him on the floor and he lied down. I could not see if Kazuto apologized or not, but my husband says he didn't (though he does not know body language nearly as well as I do so I'm not sure). My husband then lightly nudged him with his foot to try to get him up (not sure why) and Kazuto bit his leg and drew blood.
Then when it was time for us to leave for work, my husband took him outside to the enclosure to put him in it. He rested his hand on Kazuto's head and he nipped his arm (without drawing blood).

I was told that he was taken from his mother and bottle fed... but I can't recall at what age... 2 weeks, 3 weeks or 4 weeks.. I'm not sure which it was. I do remember that the breeder kept him until 12 weeks for socialization.

As a response to handing him over to someone more experienced...
I'm experienced with wolfdogs, but not with rescues. All of my past dogs have been puppies when I got them. So am I just never supposed to get a rescue dog and just get puppies from now on because I'm not experienced?

I don't want to give up on him. He is very loving and has yet to harm me, Rarity or Mari (my malamute). He is actually extremely gentle with Rarity.

As Dibbythedog has stated , you really need to work on your husbands approach to this dog, from what I am reading, your dog is constantly being pushed into a corner, and is reacting the only way he is able to defend himself, this dog obviously has issues that have come from his past, unfortunately you don`t know what /how and who did it to him, it could be a combination of things, poor breeding, poor socialization along with treatment from humans.......

You are right in the respect all the things that happened to your husband could have been avoided, but from the dogs point of view, your hubby kept pushing and did not listen to the dogs obvious discomfort and anxiety . if you cant get your hubby understand the dogs body language , this is only going to escalate to a far more serious bite.

You keep saying you understand body language, but from what you post I am not so sure, you keep mentioning the dog "apologizing" can you be more specific , because dogs would need to understand and remember that did something wrong for them to apologize , along with the dogs other behaviour as Dibbythedog stated, the dogs body language could be an indicator of many things, lowering heads and ears could have many meanings, its more likey he is anxious about something, ( the tone of your voice or body posture) rather than him seeing you as alpha.

I think you need to take a heart felt look at your situation and see if you can really give this dog the time he needs to help him, or allow him to go to someone with more experience with rescues with unknown history.
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