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ClaireandDaisy
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14-03-2009, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
They arent meant to curl around the leg!!!!! Thats a fault & collies WILL get marked for it. A chap called Steve Wilson worked Newfies, they were brilliant got up to A & B i think. & thre are TONS of OES working very successfully at the moment up to open C (non in ticket currently)
Why do obedience classes round here teach it then? I got `told off` in one class because my dog wasn`t looking at my face while walking beside me - this is what causes the twist. All the Obedience competitions I`ve seen have the dog walking forward while the head is twisted up and sideways.

like this
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Tassle
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14-03-2009, 09:08 AM
Its a different thing to have your dog looking at you and having your dog curled around your leg. It should only cause the dog to curl round if your hand or the dogs focal point is too far forwards. If you teach the dog to fous further back you shouldn;t have the problem of the dog coming too far forwards,

On the other side - I spent 6 years with Jazz working him on the left for obedience - whe I came to do Freestyle I wanted him on the right. It took him a long time to learn, his position was never very good and he frequently went lame when I first started - from that point I never just teach left hand work - I balance the dog in the same way you would a horse that you were lunging. So far no more problems. (fingers crossed!)

I also teach people who come to me to work the dog on both sides
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mishflynn
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14-03-2009, 09:13 AM
they can look at your face with out been curled around your leg

Bit Forward & curled around





Taking over, working Forward much too curled (still looking though!!!)




Much better Position, head tight on the leg but not curled around





Straight up & looking

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ClaireandDaisy
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14-03-2009, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Its a different thing to have your dog looking at you and having your dog curled around your leg. It should only cause the dog to curl round if your hand or the dogs focal point is too far forwards. If you teach the dog to fous further back you shouldn;t have the problem of the dog coming too far forwards,

On the other side - I spent 6 years with Jazz working him on the left for obedience - whe I came to do Freestyle I wanted him on the right. It took him a long time to learn, his position was never very good and he frequently went lame when I first started - from that point I never just teach left hand work - I balance the dog in the same way you would a horse that you were lunging. So far no more problems. (fingers crossed!)

I also teach people who come to me to work the dog on both sides
Yes, sorry, I meant the twist that is caused by the dog`s neck being turned sideways and up for heelwork. I still don`t see many breeds being able to maintain this position for long without strain. The muscle round the shoulders/ necks of the more powerful breeds would prevent their being able to hold it, surely?
eta: I see the pics are all smallish collies.
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Tassle
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14-03-2009, 09:21 AM
I don't know - there are some amazing videos of Rotties working (doing Schutzhund) and maintaining a better position that a lot of dogs.

Again - my view is that it should come back to balancing the dog - so it is able to work both sides.
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mishflynn
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14-03-2009, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Why do obedience classes round here teach it then? I got `told off` in one class because my dog wasn`t looking at my face while walking beside me - this is what causes the twist. All the Obedience competitions I`ve seen have the dog walking forward while the head is twisted up and sideways.

like this

There is no way we want "twisted" necks & heads. No way, Sometimes you get that because the dogs are too keen or in the way that you train.especially the collies Its a misunderstanding/intrepretation of the "correct" HW pos.

Ideally you want Leg contact with the head with the Head up so handler & dog are looking at each other & not ahead. The dog should be in a straight line, twisting the neck around will either create a "( " shape or a "/"

Shape, both of which are markable.

If the dogs arent looking then their minds are elsewhere & are doing Heel by feel which isnt what we want, also by looking up, the "drive" that you wnt from behind is going to go "upwards" & not "forwards" (see flynns forward pics above!!! )

A good Judge & a good trainer will take into account the dogs conformation
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mishflynn
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14-03-2009, 09:25 AM
Have alook for crufts obedience pics for this year, look for Ava on the bitch day (rottie) & norti on the dog day & world cup day a HUGE gronnie, both managing to keep correct positions with excellent head postions.

You will have to google as dont think we can link to other sites
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mishflynn
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14-03-2009, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Why do obedience classes round here teach it then? I got `told off` in one class because my dog wasn`t looking at my face while walking beside me - this is what causes the twist. All the Obedience competitions I`ve seen have the dog walking forward while the head is twisted up and sideways.

like this
IMO thats not twisted thats very nice!

I really dont like the expression "twist" its coming across as really negative. Most breeds could achieve the Head position of the BSD in your pic, ive judged Tons of different breeds, including bigger dogs & most can maintain the Desired head position. Its usually the collies that are most changable (bl**dy collies!!!! )
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Moobli
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14-03-2009, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by talassie View Post
I have been trying for the past 10 months but obviously am not doing it right. Do you have any tips????????

I actually think it is really hard to increase a dog's drive (much easier to have a higher drive dog and try to keep a lid on it!). I am sure with certain dogs it is just a case of finding what switches the dog on, but my Flame (who was from obedience lines) was too laid back to really get switched on when doing any kind of work (except agility!). Perhaps you could consider trying agility with Tala, to see if it sparks her enthusiasm?
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Moobli
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14-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by talassie View Post
Actually I think you are right. Or one from obedience lines.

Did you mention to Karen that you wanted a dog to do *something* with? When I contacted her and Doug about getting a pup I explained I would hopefully be wanting to do some kind of work with any pup I had and she steered me in the direction of an Anja puppy.

Perhaps have a word with Karen and see whether she can suggest something that might help increase Tala's drive? As I have also said, perhaps try agility as Flame (who is very laidback) used to get massively excited when doing agility and really enjoyed it.
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