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I find it interesting that so many of you have heard all this before and consider it hogwash, yet you continue to post here.

Brierley, there's that "P" word again. I am not using the collar to stop a behavior, I am using it on the very rare occasions when I am absolutely certain the dog heard the command and fully understands the correct response to the previously taught command. I have already shown the dog how to be "right" (i.e., what the command words ask them to do), and that being right has some very pleasant consequences, and I start this as very young puppies. In other words, I am initially teaching them what they can do. At some point (and this timing depends upon the individual dog), I am going to show them that they must do what they have learned, regardless of the distraction level, and that failure to do so results in unpleasant consequences in the form of a correction of some sort; again, the "sort" is tailored to the individual dog. I am no longer teaching, I am now proofing learned responses. The dog has been given the key to control the training; he can choose to respond correctly and all is good, or he can choose to not respond correctly and all is not so good. In the case of extreme distraction (e.g., a live bird in the case of my high-drive retrievers), I would work up to that distraction level gradually, setting the dog up to be right at each level. I give the dog the opportunity to learn to control his reaction to the adrenalin surge that comes with excitement, and to learn that if he does as I ask, he will get the bird that much faster; I have seen some dogs do some amazing things once they understand that concept.

The collar comes into the picture only after conventional training, and is IME an invaluable tool when used properly. It is very rare that I would burn a dog, the nick button is there for a reason. That's all it is, a tool, in my opinion which has been formed over the past 37 years of (successfully) breeding, training and handling my dogs in three different disciplines, and 26 years in the private instructor business. I am constantly learning and refining my methods as I go. It took me 17 years of training and learning before I felt capable of using a collar.

I can't help but think some of the responders here are viewing the e-collar in terms of the way it was first used, when it indeed was an instrument of punishment and abuse. Some people still use them that way, by design or out of ignorance; I don't happen to be one of them, and never was. Things have changed since the dark ages. I am not trying to promote anything, I have actually advised many people against using the e-collar, and was responsible for convincing a big local retailer to discontinue their e-collar rental program. I have forfeited fees and walked out of clinics given by very well-known trainers, including Jim Dobbs (let me tell you, that was an eye-opener!), because their methods were clearly punishment-based.

I have seen self-proclaimed "reward-based/positive method" trainers who failed to practice what they preach, including one who inadvertently slammed a 4 month old rott's head into a metal gatepost when "teaching" the pup to heel. I have had owners bring me problem dogs which they trained with the local positive method trainers; the owners are angry (at the dog) and frustrated, and the dogs are a hot mess.

I signed onto this forum because you all seem to have the positive thing down. I hoped to gain some knowledge that shows how it should be done, and validates my feeling that what I have seen is positive training improperly done. I guess I am in the same camp as those of you who have seen/heard about poor e-collar training; the difference is, I can, and will if asked, recount the incidents I experienced, and I would never automatically assume that all of you are know-nothing idiot animal abusers, despite what I have seen with my own eyes.I can only infer, based on some of the responses to my posts, that many of the posters are unable/unwilling to extend that same courtesy to me. Their reasons remain obscure, as they do not seem willing to share their experiences with me.

No twisting going on Lucky star, just a difference of opinion re:what constitutes abuse.

Did you read my response to the post you quoted? See post #61.

I find it interesting that so many of you have heard all this before and consider it hogwash, yet you continue to post here.

Anyone who has had an EMG [Electromyography] test knows how painful it can be, and they are warned beforehand about that fact.

I should imagine that giving a dog an unexpected shock is probably even more painful, especially as the nerves in the neck are far more sensitive than those in a human's arms or legs.

That is not "correction". It is punishment and utter cruelty.

I am not upset Alexandra - I am angry because I detest cruelty.

Where I live I would be breaking the law if I used an e-collar, I wish the rest of the UK would catch up [and the rest of the world.]

Re: the last paragraph: LOL Azz, that's exactly what I have repeatedly asked for from many of the posters, real life examples of collar use that they have witnessed! Have you not noticed my plea, and the stated reason for it? Pot, meet kettle.

See post #79 which deals with some of your questions.