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MerlinsMum
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03-12-2010, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
I also hope it has been enough for any people sitting on the fence to be able to compair and contrast and realise that not all trainers are created the same and possibly the little unhappy nervous dog is not how they want their dogs to live their lives
Me too - good words BMF

What would be better, of course, is if discussion of absusive training methods were disallowed on here. I am for all for free speech.... But E-collars are already illegal in one pprtion of the UK, so anyone living there who takes Adam's advice is on the wrong side of the law.

If so, then perhaps he might have something to answer to there; isn't encouraging people to break the law a crime in itself?

How are the e-collar Sales in Wales going, Adam? Good as ever... with lots of indignant outlaws trying to cheat the law; or have they fallen off somewhat?
Dobermann
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03-12-2010, 08:30 PM
Thanks

Not sure if I needed to know.....but thanks
Adam P
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03-12-2010, 09:41 PM
I will train the behaviour in with the collar in some circumstances or just use the collar to proof.

Alternatively I might not use the collar at all.

In the latter two cases I use a variety of methods, free shaping, lure/reward and guide and reward.

Brierly

Why is there one of these peer reviews about Lincoln University Brierley. do you have a link?

MF

It was a couple of dogs I met in relation to my work, e collars are pretty frowned upon in OB (I guess) so won't go into anymore details.

I have no real interest in OB atm.

Adam
Dobermann
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03-12-2010, 09:58 PM
But if you can train the behaviour with lure-reward or behaviour shaping (with positive methods) why do you need to proof the behaviour with the E-collar? Is it to save 'time'?

If a dog isnt/hasnt learned a behaviur well using the above why is it that you then move onto an e-collar?
Adam P
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03-12-2010, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
But if you can train the behaviour with lure-reward or behaviour shaping (with positive methods) why do you need to proof the behaviour with the E-collar? Is it to save 'time'?

If a dog isnt/hasnt learned a behaviur well using the above why is it that you then move onto an e-collar?
1ST point
Because some/many dogs will never become proofed without aversives. Why do many people (despite extensive training) have dogs that pull/run off/chase stuff ect, not because Poitive is ineffective but because it is ineffective on its own.

2nd point

You can train straight from scratch with an e collar, often if I work with a dog who doesn't seem to get it with a different approach an e collar will work because its very clear. Some dogs in some environments are simply not sufficently interested to adjust there behaviours for a reward.

Adam
SLB
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03-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
1ST point
Because some/many dogs will never become proofed without aversives. Why do many people (despite extensive training) have dogs that pull/run off/chase stuff ect, not because Poitive is ineffective but because it is ineffective on its own.

2nd point

You can train straight from scratch with an e collar, often if I work with a dog who doesn't seem to get it with a different approach an e collar will work because its very clear. Some dogs in some environments are simply not sufficently interested to adjust there behaviours for a reward.

Adam

Benjie is DA and with positive reinforcement alone he can walk past a dog fine - if I shocked him it would make it worse I.E : Dog = eletric shock, whether or not he reacted or not the first time I did it - DUH!

And Louie at 6 months knows 25 commands and I havent used any punishment or aversives to do that just a loud firm voice - which I am proud to own and treats - lots of them
Lucky Star
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03-12-2010, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
1ST point
Because some/many dogs will never become proofed without aversives. Why do many people (despite extensive training) have dogs that pull/run off/chase stuff ect, not because Poitive is ineffective but because it is ineffective on its own.

2nd point

You can train straight from scratch with an e collar, often if I work with a dog who doesn't seem to get it with a different approach an e collar will work because its very clear. Some dogs in some environments are simply not sufficently interested to adjust there behaviours for a reward.

Adam
I'd just like to add that this is all just your personal opinion.
Adam P
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03-12-2010, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by SLB View Post
Benjie is DA and with positive reinforcement alone he can walk past a dog fine - if I shocked him it would make it worse I.E : Dog = eletric shock, whether or not he reacted or not the first time I did it - DUH!

And Louie at 6 months knows 25 commands and I havent used any punishment or aversives to do that just a loud firm voice - which I am proud to own and treats - lots of them
So Benjie isn't DA then, anymore. Could you let him off with another dog (male) and have no probs?

Most sensitive dogs find a firm voice hugely aversive, especially working breeds. In fact the whole tone of voice training system is based around usung the voice as an aversive and as a reinforcer (by changing the tone or volume).

Adam
rune
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03-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
I'd just like to add that this is all just your personal opinion.
No it isn't---it is a straight copy of the writings (ramblings) of two other people. Both of whom are unbalanced. Strangely AP even sounds like one of them on his videos.

He is only on the forum because they are both banned and they need a mouthpiece.

rune
Adam P
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03-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
I'd just like to add that this is all just your personal opinion.
And your own dog? dog social is he?

Adam
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