And you don't seem to know a thing about dog training or canine psychology or behavior. So your point is a bit moot.

Many of us know a lot about shock collars and refuse to use them because of what we DO know. I have tested them on myself; I have seen what they can do to a dog. And I have chosen to never let one of those things even in the same room as my dog. Nor will I take her to a class where they are allowed.

I'm curious as to your statement about USA police dogs being required to wear shock collars. Where did you get this info from? If that's true, that's a damned shame. I think some police forces are moving beyond such training, realizing that there are better and more humane ways to train their dogs. Anyone who uses a shock collar doesn't understand dog psychology and doesn't know how to figure out what really motivates a dog to work.

Sure, you can inflict pain on any living creature and have them do what you want them to do. Someone could put one on me and tell me to sit and you bet I'd do it to avoid shocks. But I'm not enjoying the "work" and I'm not motivated to do it. Shock collar fails or is taken off and I'm going to get the hell out. Dogs aren't so different, though they may not quite understand 100% that the collar is gone and they can retaliate. But some do. And some will. Why create a dangerous monster with your electronic pain device when you can use other methods to create a dog willing to work hard for you and who will kiss you for it.

LOL---now AP is going to tell the police how to train their dogs better!

The requirement to wear e collars in some states was apparently because they had no control without them----which doesn't say a lot for the method or the people applying it!

rune

It amazes me. These K9 handlers, people who SHOULD be top in their field, can't control their dog without shocking the crap out of it? But I can quietly tell my dog to stop and she does, all without even having ANY collar on? Some trainers THEY are.

ah yes, the boy knows better than the police, the BVA, the APDT, the Dogs Trust, the APBC and the Kennel Club!
Hey, with an ego that size I`m amazed he fits in a house.

Electric Shock Dog Collars in the UK - How shocked are you? Kennel Club calls for a complete ban
Author: The Kennel Club UK
Website: http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/
Posted: Wednesday 6th June, 2007

Would you believe it if you knew that dogs all over the UK, have electric shocks put into their necks by their owners, and even dog trainers?

Well unfortunately its true – manufacturers and some trainers are advocating the use of remote controlled electric collars including dog trainers.

Shock collars work by emitting painful shocks to the dog, increasing in pain level as the dog continues its ‘undesirable’ behaviour and by pressing a button, the shock is transmitted to the dog’s neck via two large prongs. They train a dog to respond out of fear of further punishment rather than through a natural willingness to obey through positive training.

Electric shock collars are readily available to anyone – with or without the knowledge of the harm they can do. And the marketing of shock collars can easily convince people that they are a fast ‘cure-all’ to every behavioural problem.

Those that have seen the affect of electric shock collars know of the damage they cause both in the short and long term.

For example: Anjelica Steinker, of the Courteous Canine Dog School and Doggie Gym said;

“A friend of mine rescued a Jack Russell Terrier after a professional dog trainer had used an electric shock collar to help house train her.

When the terrier came to my friend she was very fearful of urinating and constantly checked herself, presumably for urine. It took several months to housetrain this dog because of all the fear that was caused by the shock collar”.

Pat Miller wrote for The Whole-Dog-Journal.com;

“Rufus was a typical adolescent Labrador Retriever: Rufus’s energy was a bit much for the younger children. A pet supply store (sold) a product that promised to solve problems with the push of a button. One rainy afternoon, a neighbour, sent his son out to the pen to take Rufus for a walk. Rufus wouldn’t let the boy get near him. He said Rufus had this green colour round his neck under the training collar. I carefully removed the collar to find a huge gaping hole in Rufus’ neck, under one of the prongs”.

Dr Susan Benson of the Animal Medical Centre in Preston, Idaho who treated Rufus’ injuries claimed: “This was one of the worst electrical burns I have seen other than dogs who have had contact with high power lines.”

Shock collars fail to address underlying behavioural problems and can give rise to more serious problems. Confusion over where the painful shock has come from means the dog is more likely to associate it with something in its immediate environment than with its behaviour at the time. This can make attacks on owners, other dogs and animals more likely.

Independent scientific research confirms that the collars are both ‘painful and frightening’, and influence the dog’s well being negatively in the long term. The Kennel Club wants to see a complete ban on their sale and use.

Local MP Timothy Farron, Liberal Democrat whose constituency is Westmorland and Lonsdale, has already signed the Early Day Mention supporting the Kennel Club call for a ban.

He is clearly opposed to the collars and says; “Pain and fear are not humane methods by which to train a dog. There are positive training tools and methods which train dogs quickly, easily and reliably, with absolutely no fear, pain, or damage. These include recall training, clicker training and retractable leads. With these alternatives available, there is no justification for electric shock collars.”

Caroline Kisko, Kennel Club Secretary concluded, “There is strong political support for a ban from across the parties, and the UK, with Wales and Scotland having made commitments to consider a complete ban. However more MPs are needed to sign the EDM to keep up the momentum of the campaign, until a ban is brought into place in England.”

The Kennel Club has produced a standard letter to help people contact and encourage their MPs to sign the early day motion. This letter should be sent to their local MP’s office and/or Animal Welfare Minister, Ben Bradshaw MP.

The KC has also produced a guide on how to lobby MPs about electric shock collars. To receive a copy of the letter and the guide, please contact Laura on 020 7518 1020 or laura.vallance@thekennelclub.org.uk or visit www.thekennelclub.org.uk and click on press office / campaigns and schemes.

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT), the UK’s largest professional pet dog training body, is also joining the fight. According to the APDT there is no behaviour or training problem in dogs that is best dealt with by delivering an electric shock to a dog’s neck.

So please support the campaign for a ban, and protect dogs from electric shock collars, by contacting your MP and asking him/her to pledge support to the Kennel Club’s shock collar campaign by signing the Early Day Motion.

Establishments that have already banned electric shock collars, include the Association of Chief Police Officers, the armed forces and the two largest German Shepherd Dog Clubs in the country - they have imposed a voluntary ban on the use of electric shock collars to train their dogs.

Adam will answer this when he has checked with good ole unc lou!

rune

I don't think its a case of can't control the dog without, more a case of authorities feeling more comfortable with them on the dog, btw I believe most states don't require it.

As an example of this. I have an old video of a us police dog instructor working with 3/4 different dogs. The youngest is a recently imported/trained gsd male with a novice handler. The dog has complete basics such as bite work and so on. The dog is clearly very high drive. While working the dog the instructor continually points out the dog is just young and the handler inexperienced.
they do some heels and downs/sits ont the lead then let the dog off, the video is shot in a field with two guys in bite suits. The dog is sent to attack a few times, completes the bite and is then recalled/out from the bite, before continueing heelwork, now free.
All this he does well.
They then run though a series of send outs, recalls before attack, downs before attack and out from one guy to attack the other. This is all done on one or two commands.
The dog isn't yet a working dog and is still in training!
Tbh I've never seen even top of the range police dogs doing this in the uk, please point it out to me.
I assume send in the dogs was cream of the crop, nothing wrong with it but in most cases the dogs couldn't be called off an attack then left in the down while the officer detained the suspect, they had to call for backup.
Btw I did enjoy the sniffer dogs.

''ah yes, the boy knows better than the police, the BVA, the APDT, the Dogs Trust, the APBC and the Kennel Club! ''

KC, BVA not training organisations.

DT, puts down hundreds of dogs with behavioural problems every year.

Apbc and Adpt, heavily invested in a positive reward absed image.

Quick point, I recently posted videos of a us trainer working with a cattle dog bitch. He is registered with the us equivilant of the Adpt, and is also an e collar trainer.

Jb, what would you like me to do, case studies? I've done them, step by step training advice, I've offered it. You raise the same questions I raise the same reply's.

Adam

My goodness, i've not checked this thread for ages, HOW many posts???????! I think i get the prize for starting the longest, most debated thread yet! LOL What do I win?

Interesting though, have to say..

In the States, many vets including top well known ones also disagree with the use of shock collars.

Our police force dogs certainly do out - but then I think it depends on who you see, as some forces are better than others. I know people who are police dog handlers (malis) and their dogs out well, they are in fact clicker trained, it's very powerful. The officer concerned said he's never seen such well controlled dogs using this method.

The articles refer to how shock collars are used by the general public, that's what counts, surely?



Wys
x

It says a lot about their training methods in the first place, methinks

ACtually, it's a classic reason why most people use shock - they lack the skills to train any other way. So the dog suffers instead. 'Nuff said?

Wys
x