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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
It would depend on the pup.

If I thought a noise surprise (noise aversion) the safest/quickest thing, I'd do that; if I thought it best to just take the wire, I'd do that.

With some pups, they might just try to hold on harder, in which case you'd probably try a diversion such as the doorbell ringing or even food in their dish. Anything really. As I said, it is an emergency.

What would you do, Denise?

"Emergency" for me is a life threatening thing, we differ on that. I'd see the bin as a training (or management) issue.

Wys
x
I think I already said - that Id us an a-ha or a hey you or similar. I see any act that my pup or dog is doing, that is "against" what I wish during its lifetime, as an emergency - ie it requires immediate remedial action.
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Here's a usual scenario:

Just one or two dogs in the home (so not a group who can amuse each other) and ordinary owners (not ones who are into dog training) and they tell their dogs off using a verbal punishment if they raid the bin.

I can guarantee you that a very large proportion of those self same dogs will do it again later when they have the opportunity, when their owners are out, esp. if their owners work. It would not surprise me if all of them did it.


Wys
x
Of course a do that has little to occupy it is more likely to look for something to occupy itself. Of course. Which is perhaps why those who attend my classes and indeed those on this forum are not a far representation of bin raiders. As I have said, it has been a genuine surprise to me, how many people suffer this, and I will include it in my owner and pre owner education events. During which we also give some top tips on entertaining bored dogs easily . THanks for all your input peeps. Denise Mcleod
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post

I would then teach them to ignore cables - and make sure they didnt have access to them
Brill. Can I ask how you would teach this?
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rune
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28-07-2011, 09:45 AM
It is hardly a surprise that so many dogs scavenge for food---that is what they are designed to do----as do cats sometimes.

The surprise to me is that many don't!

re the sniping at other dogs, I do think it is useful to be able to make an educated guess as to why the dog is doing it but it needs to be stopped fast and hard IMO. I have seen SO many dogs who do it. Etta would have been a prime offender as would Polly.

rune
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rune
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28-07-2011, 09:46 AM
I think we all agree that 'raining' is positive but 'emergency' is different. We just seem to differ on 'emergency'

rune
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I am going to stick my neck out here---I know EXACTLY what the OP means about the purely positive thing.

There are times when a kissy kissy noise simply doesn't hack it----times when a dog/pup is going to 'snipe' at other dogs especially. It really gets me cross when the pup is not corrected for the behaviour and the owner ends up with a dog whose area of supposed control gets bigger and bigger and they then have a problem. Personal space is one thing but a 50 yd exclusion area is quite another!

I have lots of dogs in and out and if unacceptable behaviour happens they are told it is unacceptable. TBF it is rare. I have had the odd dog stand by me and repel the rest----that is not on. Nor is big serious arguing over things on the floor. Nor is beating other dogs up.

Benj is bullying Pippin a bit----difficult to stop but not imposible but I certainly have to raise my voice.

I haven't had a real handbag session for ages (years) but if it does happen I will stop in any way I can. In the past I have been physical in such situations now I am probably tighter and jump more on smaller things----maybe that makes for a more secure group.

I think this thread is important and relevant but I also think that for a huge majority of dogs and situations the kissy kissy works and does less damage than a badly timed and harsh correction would.

rune
I agree in many ways with this and I understand exactly where the OP is coming from. I am all for kissey noises and clickers and food and tug games - it was we base all our work on. But if I have to step into a dog aggression situation Im not going to do it armed with a sausage!

If my dog is so focused on something in the distance that it fails to hear me speak, then I am going to touch his or her sise to gain the attention that I need to train teh dog or keep it safe.

I also outline rules and boundaries and thing to be left alone if those things are required to keep the dog safe or within the confines of the law, or keep harmony with other dogs or animals.

And if there is a life threatening situation in action, then I will take whatever action is necessary to save the dogs life.
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waggytail
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28-07-2011, 09:54 AM
Quote from Lotsadogs:I see any act that my pup or dog is doing, that is "against" what I wish during its lifetime, as an emergency - ie it requires immediate remedial action.

I agree, I don't think every "emergency" has to be nessecarily "life threatening" however many behaviour and/or situations can still be potentially dangerous and undersirable.
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waggytail
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28-07-2011, 10:05 AM
Thank you to Lotsadogs, Rune, and others who do understand where I am coming from....I am grateful as I was beginning to worry!

Do you feel that the media has made you more self conscious of how you train, methods and terminology used etc? in a good way or in a bad way?

Does the media portray a true picture of how trainers actually use different methods?

Have you seen (as I have) handlers who are now limiting their methods in order to "conform" only to end up struggling with undesirable behaviour or worse still letting it go "unoticed"?
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sarah1983
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28-07-2011, 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
I would agree on this, when doing basic training I use "shaping" (dog following a treat or toy to achieve positions such as "sit", "Down" etc) However once a dog has learned this I see no problem in using my hands to guide or reposition them if they need a gentle reminder.
Just a quick point, this is luring not shaping.

Most dogs I know find being physically positioned very aversive and if the dog has truly learned the command then I see no reason you'd need to physically position them. The only time I need to do it with my dog is at the vets where he's too anxious to be able to follow a command. Even then I can usually get him into whatever position they need simply by luring him.

As for punishing a dog that's having a pop at other dogs, if the dog is having a go because it's frightened then that's the last thing I'd recommend doing.
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Lotsadogs
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28-07-2011, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post

I'm sorry if I have not been clear in my posts, As a previous poster has already mentioned it is sometimes difficult to express in the right words as so many terms and phrases are now very emotive. This has certainly made me think about some of the words I use and have used for many years as I see how easily I can be judged and misunderstood
Forgive me if I am preaching here to the converted.

What you will come to realise about forums and in my experience - this forum in particular - is that there is usually an established "mindset" in place.

Within this mindset there are certain beliefs and approaches which are deemed "acceptable" and some which are not.
The general mindset of this forum appears to be APDT stuff good, anythign/anyone which deviates slightly or significantly from that, bad. Or badish. Dependign on teh extent of the deviation.

If for instance you raise the dreaded word "E-collar" you are likely to be PERSONALLY attacked, even if you rasied it in a "what do you think about it?" way - With no intention to use one, touch one, but because you have a genuine curiosity about how it may or may not work! I know because its happened to me on a different forum years ago . Sometimes people see the "outlawed" word or approach and then attach to it a pre ordained response along the lines of "you are evil" - without ever reading the original intention.

In my view, forums are brilliant as long as you remain open minded and don't get dragged into agreeing with people or adopting their belief systems as FACT even though you have no personal experience, or your personal experience is contrary to what is being said, but because you bow down to "pack mentality" or desire to be "liked". Just because someone can write charismatically, is well supported in their thinking on the forum, or because they have made lots of "friends" doesn't actually make their experience or beliefs correct. No matter how well supported.

There are a number of very wise people on this forum, there are also some with really valuable personal experiences of huge numbers of dogs and some jolly nice folk too. There are also, as with any group of people some "followers" of approaches, who have little or no personal experience but strong and verment unshakable views. In my view both sets of people are valuable to a forum or discussion in their own way....On their own merit. Because they represent what we are all actually interested in, dogs and dog owners and their diverse views and standpoints.

What is sad I think is when people are driven away, by the "mob" when actually they may have contributed greatly to the usefullness or entertainment of a forum.

All of the best dog trainers in the world that I have personally encountered have one thing in common, that for the most productive years of their "dog" life, they have to some degree or other [I]flexibility in their views[/I. The very fact that are world or activity leaders in their sphere, indicates that they are known for "new" thinking or approaches more than they are known to "follow" the concensus of opinion.

It is when views become fixed, that they sometimes become obstructive to new learning, better thinking and a better outcome for dogs in general. Thats my view and it may be Bollo***.

And it seems you have the right attitude for forums To learn and grow.

I think that your thread has been a good one and your mindset is sufficiently open for this to be a place of great learning. Thank you for starting the thread. Denise Mcleod
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