The video or the words?

Wys
x

Oh goodness---sorry---in too much of a rush. I meant AP's comments on why not a vibrating collar.

Why on earth the users can't just say they use it because it hurts the dog and therefore works is beyond me!

Luckily most people are now seeing through the rubbish they spout and realising that electricity does hurt!

rune

I remember as a kid being taken to a farm and the farmer held on to the electric fence while holding on to another childs hand who was holding another etc.... I've never forgotten the unpleasantness of having an electric shock.

Although I couldn't have respect for anyone who uses e collars, I agree that just some plain old honesty would be appreciated!!

Electricity doesn't hurt when used at a low enough level.
Any time you with hold a potential treat that's negative punishment.
As above Rune my experience with vib collars is they're too much for some dogs e collars are not, so I'm using the e collar to be nicer to the dog.

Adam

NO OFFENCE INTENDED, but I fail to see the similarity between withholding a treat and giving an electric shock. Sorry.


Snorri

Because both pre-suppose a level of logic in a dog that will be familiar to anyone who watches Tom & Jerry
1. Dog thinks:- gosh, there is a pain happening. It must be because I haven`t eaten that sheep. Or possibly because I haven`t run away fast enough.
2. Dog thinks: o wow my super senses tell me that the Man has a tasty morsel of liver in his pouch which I`m not going to get because I haven`t sat down quickly - or possibly because the greedy g*t has munched it himself. Now, I must go and compose a pome on the error of my ways.
(of course I`ll have to learn Language, certain philosophical concepts and develop opposing thumbs first)

Or it could be that both are used by people who don`t like dogs very much? And who blame the dog rather than the handler.
If a dog doesn`t do what is asked the dog is not well trained or handled. Which is is not the fault of the dog.
Therefore the electric shocks are being given to the wrong species.

It doesn't go with postive reinforcement in the way that +P goes with negative reinforcement, which is what i think you were suggesting?

. Ie it isn't happening all the time, as it does with +P/-R. I've heard this claim bandied around so much by shock collar trainers and they haven't got the handle on OC and are bandying this around, no doubt to attack positive trainers.

Yes, some positive trainers may use negative punishment (withholding of toys, etc for a few seconds/moments) but it's not the same relationship as that between +P and -R.

Ie it's not "automatic". Positive reinforcement is not automatically followed by negative punishment in the same way that positive punishment is followed by negative reinforcement (relief at avoiding/escaping the aversive)..



Wys
x

Agree, and especially the last bit

Wys
x

Adam ~ I don't think I've ever said that ecollars don't work ~ all I've said is that I think it's an unnecessarily cruel & unethical way to train dogs. I don't agree with using pain & fear to teach a dog correct behaviour. I also don't think that using pain & fear is a very reliable way to extinguish ingrained, innate behaviours like prey drive & I've also said that using punishment as a first method of training dogs leads to unwanted emotional fallout & can lead to the development of other, perhaps even worse behaviours.

However you have still failed to respond to the other part of the AVSAB statement which says that in order for punishment to be effective, it must produce a strong fear response. The way that you say you use ecollars, i.e. only on the lowest setting for a "mild" sensation, either, a) doesn't produce a strong fear response, so won't be effective, or b) does produce a strong fear response, so may work, but then you are causing fear & pain to the dog. You can't have it both ways ~ this is the science behind learning theory, not the way you are describing it. Your knowledge of learning theory is flawed & lacking in scientific reasoning if you think otherwise.

I am frankly astonished by your views on AVSAB's position statement! Are you really saying that your qualification & very limited experience in anyway competes with the huge wealth of qualifications, experience & knowledge of the AVSAB members? Of course AVSAB & many other accredited organisations like APBC, are invested in +ve reinforcement ~ because it works & because it is a kinder & more ethical way to train dogs!.

Like most e collar trainers he is looking for quick fixes.

Far more important than cosidering long term fallout or short term pain.

rune