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Location: grangemouth for the moment
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04-04-2010, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer 
Shona, a cautiouse maybe!
These dog's fitted my criteria (see previouse posts) and were in some cases going to be pts or rehomed. I may have tried other aversives or PR in a different fashion, but in the case of the aversive I believe the other aversives would have been more severe than the e collar (there's lots of old tricks for livestock chasing that aren't nice) the PR approach (always my favoured approach) does work well but had been tried (in a good effective way) with these dogs and they weren't respondong.
Therefore I made the decision that an e collar approach was in their best interests and trained them with it, with success I might add.
Adam[
I only ask as I very often deal with difficult dogs, more so aggression issues.
ETA: do you run weekly training classes? or is it more one on one training you offer clients?
also can I ask, what sort of cost would be involved in having one on one training with an e-collar and how many sessions would normally be involved?
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Location: UK
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04-04-2010, 07:29 PM
Without e collars I would still try but wouldn't be as sure of my success (within time frames)
I do see what your saying though. I would like not have to use aversives at all (except maybe relationship based tone of voice) but find it's often not possible in the situation.
I do only one to one. Classes are scary! Lol I have enormouse respect for anyone who does a class but I could never be that confident with all thoses people and feel I would end up training the worst in the room, instead of spreading my concentration.
Cost wise.
I technically charge £25 hour. I say technically as I'm rather prone to sob stories and giving discounts which can be rather less profitable. It's the same with or without the e collar.
Length of training varies. We worked the malamute for three hours (with breaks) but generally I do an hour at a time. With chasers I'll normally do an hour or two (separate sesisons) recall then tackle the sheep (or whatever they chase) as outlined, often another 2 hours. For the first session (in the pen) WE'll arrange with a local farmer to use his sheep and he'll pen them up for us and watch while we train. 2nd session we'll head onto the moors and work on generalisation. That's a rough timescale.
With other stuff it depends on the dog and takes as long as it takes.
A interesting aside if during or after the training the owners want to keep hold of the collar I will loan or rent or sell it to them, Most don't need this. Once again if they haven't the money I'll just loan it, I've occassionally lost money while using e collars!
Adam
BTW a fellow dog trainer? cool.
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
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04-04-2010, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Sheep
No they don't have to wear them all their lives. The malamute hasn't worn his for 10 days and will only have it back when introduced to sheep in an unfamilar location.
Technically the training doesn't stop chasing, they stop the look which occurs before the chase.
Minihahha
Even when e collar training a recall 80% of the reinforcement is pr, re your other point, sometimes people can't manage the dog so the e collar is a kind and effective solution.
Discomfort
Yes it's discomfort. The same princple that makes halti's and harnesses prevent pulling. The reason they've lots of levels is because different dogs sensitivity varies. One dog may feel it on 20, another 30 and another 40. If the collars only had one level of sensation that wouldn't be felt by some dogs and would be too strong for others. Each dogs sensitivity is unique to it as an indivadual.
Epilepsy
I believe an e collar manufacture commission some research into medical implications, the research found that the strength of the current could do no harm to the animal. Tritronics was the company.
STock feces use way more voltage than even a collar set on the highest setting.
Spray collars
I've used in the past and will maybe use again, but there not great.
A. some dogs aren't bothered by them (don't even register it) so ineffective
B. those that do register it are often very startled by them, typical reactions include. The dog jumping and moving rapidly away, cowering body language, sensitisation to other hissy noises (air breaks ect) these big reactions indecate the dog is under lots more aversive than the mild reaction when he feels a sensation. So it's a more severe aversive, I want to be nice to the dog so would sooner not use a severe aversive.
Cats
My cats roam as they like, I live in the country. People who use cat e collars may live in the town were the cat could be in danger if it left the garden. A pen might provide a solution but would be smaller than the garden. Econmics may prevent you fencing the whole garden. An e collar might provide the cat with more freedom and safety.
I've used an e collar to correct predatory interest in cats (the dog also liked sheep) using my approach the dog learned not to view the cat as prey which enabled us to clicker the dog into liking the cat. They ended up being good friends and are always left alone together.
The cat trained itself!
Wyswig
My e collar training is 80% pr so not comparable to the stuff you dislike. Having said that I have done some training were it's 100% nr (sheep) and the dog appears to be in no distress. When doing follow up sessions the dog is excited to see me as last time we went for a nice walk.
The invisible fence training was done wrong, they turned it up high and didn't show the dog not to approach. If they hadn't used the fence they would propably of used another aversive or given the dog away. I noticed the pr approach of stilwell didn't make the dog sociable enough to go to the dog park.
Ellies
I use the lead to show what I want, I can also do it without a lead but using the lead is clearer so better. The rest of the training sounds very much like my e collar approach.
Wilbar
NR shows the animal very very clearly what you want, you release the pressure the instant the animal does the right thing. The pressure when not doing the right thing means that when experiencing no pressure the animal is in a constant state of getting it right. With a clicker unless your clicking the animal is not actively getting it right. jmho
Adam
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
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04-04-2010, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Shona, I think it has widened the training issues for me and certainly made solving the problems easier.
Without e collars I would still try but wouldn't be as sure of my success (within time frames)
I do see what your saying though. I would like not have to use aversives at all (except maybe relationship based tone of voice) but find it's often not possible in the situation.
I do only one to one. Classes are scary! Lol I have enormouse respect for anyone who does a class but I could never be that confident with all thoses people and feel I would end up training the worst in the room, instead of spreading my concentration.
Cost wise.
I technically charge £25 hour. I say technically as I'm rather prone to sob stories and giving discounts which can be rather less profitable. It's the same with or without the e collar.
Length of training varies. We worked the malamute for three hours (with breaks) but generally I do an hour at a time. With chasers I'll normally do an hour or two (separate sesisons) recall then tackle the sheep (or whatever they chase) as outlined, often another 2 hours. For the first session (in the pen) WE'll arrange with a local farmer to use his sheep and he'll pen them up for us and watch while we train. 2nd session we'll head onto the moors and work on generalisation. That's a rough timescale.
With other stuff it depends on the dog and takes as long as it takes.
A interesting aside if during or after the training the owners want to keep hold of the collar I will loan or rent or sell it to them, Most don't need this. Once again if they haven't the money I'll just loan it, I've occassionally lost money while using e collars!
Adam
BTW a fellow dog trainer? cool.
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Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
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05-04-2010, 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Sheep
No they don't have to wear them all their lives. The malamute hasn't worn his for 10 days and will only have it back when introduced to sheep in an unfamilar location.
Technically the training doesn't stop chasing, they stop the look which occurs before the chase.
Minihahha
Even when e collar training a recall 80% of the reinforcement is pr, re your other point, sometimes people can't manage the dog so the e collar is a kind and effective solution.
Discomfort
Yes it's discomfort. The same princple that makes halti's and harnesses prevent pulling.
Actually harnesses & haltis aren't usually very successful at preventing pulling if you've got a determined dog with a strong neck.
The reason they've lots of levels is because different dogs sensitivity varies. One dog may feel it on 20, another 30 and another 40. If the collars only had one level of sensation that wouldn't be felt by some dogs and would be too strong for others. Each dogs sensitivity is unique to it as an indivadual.
Epilepsy
I believe an e collar manufacture commission some research into medical implications, the research found that the strength of the current could do no harm to the animal. Tritronics was the company.
STock feces use way more voltage than even a collar set on the highest setting.
Spray collars
I've used in the past and will maybe use again, but there not great.
A. some dogs aren't bothered by them (don't even register it) so ineffective so if you're only using such a mild shock, so that it is just a mild "sensation" why doesn't the same principle apply as with the spray collars ~ it's exactly the same principle that you say works so well if it's a mild shock but apparently doesn't work with a puff of air! You can't have it both ways so methinks it's down to your interpretation of what's happening with the dog, not necessarily what is REALLY happening.B. those that do register it are often very startled by them, typical reactions include. The dog jumping and moving rapidly away, cowering body language, sensitisation to other hissy noises (air breaks ect) these big reactions indecate the dog is under lots more aversive than the mild reaction when he feels a sensation. So it's a more severe aversive, I want to be nice to the dog so would sooner not use a severe aversive. Again, exactly the same principle for a more sensitive dog wearing an ecollar ~ startle (which I've mentioned several times before), cowering & other big reactions to a mild shock ~ in this scenario the ecollar would be extremely aversive too & you would not be very "nice" to the dog
Cats
My cats roam as they like, I live in the country. People who use cat e collars may live in the town were the cat could be in danger if it left the garden. A pen might provide a solution but would be smaller than the garden. Econmics may prevent you fencing the whole garden. An e collar might provide the cat with more freedom and safety. How on earth would you train a cat not to leave the garden by using an ecollar?!! I think the only way it could possibly work is to shock the cat everytime it attempted to get out of the garden ~ so the cat may think that just jumping up anywhere will cause the shock & most cats would end up in tonic immobility if this happened. The though of trying to do this leaves me sickened with horror for any poor cat that is subject to this. As a feline behaviourist I've known very many town dwelling cats that are perfectly fine outside & many cats that lead very happy indoor only lives, with the right physical & mental stimulation. If you know anything about cats, ten you would certainly not condone the use of ecollars on cats. You have to have a very good knowledge of cat ethology to know how to modify behaviour & teaching a town dwelling cat a particular "patrol route" is one of the first principles of keeping a cat safe.
I've used an e collar to correct predatory interest in cats (the dog also liked sheep) using my approach the dog learned not to view the cat as prey which enabled us to clicker the dog into liking the cat. They ended up being good friends and are always left alone together.
The cat trained itself! And I've done exactly the same with many dog/cat introductions without having to resort to electric shocks, puffs of air, lead jerks or any other form of aversive. I do voluntary work for the Dogs Trust helping to rehome dogs with resident cats & I can't recall ever having thought of using an ecollar.
Wyswig
My e collar training is 80% pr so not comparable to the stuff you dislike. Having said that I have done some training were it's 100% nr (sheep) and the dog appears to be in no distress. When doing follow up sessions the dog is excited to see me as last time we went for a nice walk. How good are you at reading a dog's body language? It's very easy to mistake "excited to see you" with frozen watchfulness! The body language may appear to be the same, and the dog appears very eager to please, but if you really know what is the NORMAL canine behavioural repertoire & what is not, in a particular circumstance, with a particular dog, then you MAY be able to spot the difference.
The invisible fence training was done wrong, they turned it up high and didn't show the dog not to approach. If they hadn't used the fence they would propably of used another aversive or given the dog away. I noticed the pr approach of stilwell didn't make the dog sociable enough to go to the dog park.
Ellies
I use the lead to show what I want, I can also do it without a lead but using the lead is clearer so better. The rest of the training sounds very much like my e collar approach.
Wilbar
NR shows the animal very very clearly what you want, you release the pressure the instant the animal does the right thing. The pressure when not doing the right thing means that when experiencing no pressure the animal is in a constant state of getting it right. With a clicker unless your clicking the animal is not actively getting it right. jmho I'm sorry but you still haven't answered my question. How on earth does the dog know that it is doing the RIGHT thing? It could be doing several small things when the shock stops (please don't call it "releasing the pressure ~ it makes it sound like a gentle tug on a lead when it's not, it's an electric shock so please don't dress it up as anything else). The fact remains that the dog is getting a continual shock until you determine that it does one very small thing like momentarily glance away from sheep. What if, at the same time, it slightly moved it's left foot, flicked an ear, took a deep breathe? The dog could equally associate any of those things with the cessation of the shock. As for saying that the dog is in "a constant state of getting it right" ~ this just goes against the whole principle of operant conditioning. The dog is not being shown the "right" behaviour ~ it is more than likely in a constant state of fear & apprehension that another electric shock will be applied & not know what behaviour may set it off.
Adam
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Location: grangemouth for the moment
Joined: Apr 2006
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05-04-2010, 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Shona, I think it has widened the training issues for me and certainly made solving the problems easier.
possibly you should broaden your training knowlage and chuck the collar, its far more rewarding,
It doesnt take me months to turn a dog round, its normaly just a few short weeks.
I do see what your saying though. I would like not have to use aversives at all (except maybe relationship based tone of voice) but find it's often not possible in the situation.
I do only one to one. Classes are scary! Lol I have enormouse respect for anyone who does a class but I could never be that confident with all thoses people and feel I would end up training the worst in the room, instead of spreading my concentration.
I technically charge £25 hour. I say technically as I'm rather prone to sob stories and giving discounts which can be rather less profitable. It's the same with or without the e collar.
Length of training varies. We worked the malamute for three hours (with breaks) but generally I do an hour at a time. With chasers I'll normally do an hour or two (separate sesisons) recall then tackle the sheep (or whatever they chase) as outlined, often another 2 hours. For the first session (in the pen) WE'll arrange with a local farmer to use his sheep and he'll pen them up for us and watch while we train. 2nd session we'll head onto the moors and work on generalisation. That's a rough timescale.
With other stuff it depends on the dog and takes as long as it takes.
A interesting aside if during or after the training the owners want to keep hold of the collar I will loan or rent or sell it to them, Most don't need this. Once again if they haven't the money I'll just loan it, I've occassionally lost money while using e collars!
Adam
BTW a fellow dog trainer? cool.
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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05-04-2010, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
...
Yes it's discomfort. The same princple that makes halti's and harnesses prevent pulling.
I'd want an independent study or research done to be honest, if TT did it then I'd not think it's worth much.
They are the company that suggest using a shock collar on a cribbing horse
, with seemingly no other knowledge about the welfare of the horses. Appalling.It does illustrate that this is how the shock collars are used, this is how the public use them and this is therefore the true reality of shock collar training...
The human may get cross or frustrated and what then? Oh - turn up the shock, I guess ... we all know that happens.
Not much fun for dogs with owners new to shock collar training... owners who have got it because they are not adept in the first place... it's torture, not training...
Wys
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Location: Australia
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05-04-2010, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Emma
1.
studies I've seen were they concluded that the e collar was bad for the dogs also discribed the dogs reaction to the collar. This reaction was always above first level and thus showed to me that the study was invalid when compared to what I do.
Way back in this thread I asked if some pro e-collar people could show me some studies, yet none appear
I have tried to find some but all are from people with vested interest have concluded they are good, I want a study that is not from a company who makes them or an association only existing because e-collars are used.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
They're being baned because they sound bad and because high profile organisations use banning them as a way of promoting themselves. They're being banned because people don't do their research properly and make an emotive or political decision.
They are not being bad because the sound bad, they are getting banned, because they are causing more problems than they solve.
How many dogs are put in rescues or pts due to increased aggression due to e-collar use, that also would be an interesting study.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
MALAMUTE
All other avenues had been looked into (he fitted my criteria). He got lucky once (slipped the lead and killed two) then became obsessed and escaped from the house (
through a window) and got another. Even before this happened they knew something had to change as he wasn't getting enough exercise and was becoming distressed. BTW their circumstances had changed.
From what I have read alone would lead me to the belief a dog with that history should not be off lead around sheep, and to do so would be fundamentally flawed. Using an e-collar to correct this behaviour could heighten the dogs aggression, or could suppress the dogs instinct but not remove the instinct and unless the dog was on a lead it should not be free around sheep.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Hand pressure.
E collars are remote (far away) so had pressure wouldn't work. Also they're not associated with you. Using hand pressure would be associated with you which I don't want, human should always be none aversive.
If you read you earlier posts, you talk of pressing e-collar, pulling lead, then when desired response given by dog, release button, still leaving the distinct possibility for the dog to get confused and associating the lead or vocal command as the start of the pain not the undesired behaviour
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
The truth is they do use electric, the truth is it's no more aversive than hand pressure. Often people are caught up in the electric concept.
Again a hand pressure could be used rather than e-collars, again the dog beginning the training is on lead not free.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
I always discuss instinct, breed history. What's the point is discussing another breed if they want to keep the one they have now? Also apart from this problem the breed may be suitable and the e collar may deal with his problem so why need a different breed.
If you don't want a herding dog, don't get a Blue heeler or Kelpie, it is quite simple really.
The problem being herding is an instinct in these dogs, why should they have an e-collar on them because they do herd??
So that is making the problem not one of the dog but one of the owner picking a dog of choice that is inappropriate.
If you can't curb the behaviour and know there could be possible restriction if they do get a breed of dog has certain instincts, that is the fault of the owner not the dog.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Operant conditioning direct from wikipedia!
1.Positive reinforcement adds something to the situation to increase the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
2.Negative reinforcement removes something from the situation to increase the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
3.Positive punishment adds something to the situation to decrease the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
4.Negative punishment removes something from the situation to decrease the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
Negative Reinforcement (R-) (Operant)
Definition: The removal of an adverse stimulus contingent on a behavior in order to increase the probability of that behavior happening again.
Example: In order to teach dumbbell retrieve some people will use a tool called an ear pinch. The pinch is placed on the dog’s ear causing some discomfort and is removed the second the dog grabs the dumbbell, this teaches the dog that he can avoid the adverse stimulus if he retrieves the dumbbell.
Uses: R- is used to teach a dog that he/she can avoid discomfort by practicing certain behaviors.
from http://k9domain.org/techniques.aspx
change the ear pinch to e-collar same as............
From your posts you are looking for quick fixes and to appease your clients. You still haven't said if you try other methods before you go to e-collars but from your posts it would be an answer of 'no', it is used when you deem it necessary. Even on fear aggressive dogs and even those that advocate e-collars say it is inappropriate to use them for that, yet you do.
It shows the interpretation of the use of them is too broad and the abuse of them is too easy. You still failed to answer a lot of my questions,.
The e-collar is an implement to cause pain and pain only dress it up in what ever way you like it is still the same.
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Location: dullsville
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05-04-2010, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Emma
But you just said in a prior post, you didn't use studies you only talked to e-collar trainers who are obviously pro e-collars now your story changes
Way back in this thread I asked if some pro e-collar studies not from companies.
Clinical signs caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs in everyday life, E. Schalke, Department of Animal Welfare and Behaviour, Veterinary School of Hannover, Buenteweg 2, 30559 Hannover, Germany
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ae9bf2495fd8db
http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.co...382-0/abstract
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