Hi Sarah - interesting points. I will try and answer them all.

A zap is just that - a split second burst of whatever you want to call it - which causes the muscles to contract in the dog's neck, just like those Slendertone belts that you can strap round your waist to make the muscles contract and firm up your flabby belly - this does NOT cause pain, it causes a shock (NOT an electric shock!!), a surprise, frequently the dog will flick his head. The aim is not to hurt but to create an invisible leash of control between the handler and the dog. Most intelligent dogs "get it" almost immediately - it took just ONE zap, just one, for Ben to stop running away from my husband, and to respond to his loud command "COME!". You must be 100% consistent, always use a one word command and stick with it - it can be "come", or "here", or "heel", whatever you choose, but you must be consistent so that the dog associates that word with discomfort in his neck if he doesn't respond.

It is not just Ben - we put the e collar on Tai once and walked him off lead past our neigbour's chickens. As he usually did, he ran at the fence to frighten them, we immediately shouted "Come" - he didn't respond, he got a very low setting zap, he flicked his neck and came straight back to us. We don't walk past those chickens now because the farmer has put beef cattle in the field, but up until that time, Tai never ever ran at the chickens again.

The Dogtra collar has a vibrate setting, which is enough now to remind Ben if he has been slightly slow to recall. He knows that if he continues to ignore the "Come" he will get a zap. It works every time. The one proviso I would say that if you have a dog who is thick - like the English Setter my parents had - I am not sure an e collar would be such a good idea, the whole point of the e collar is NOT to have to use it! The dog wears it the whole time on walks, but if you have to use it on anything other than the vibrate, then you have failed - it is YOUR fault, not the dogs.

I can name at least 10 people who come on here regularly, or used to come, who have either used e collars or would use one if they could afford one. All of them to a man or woman have said that they wouldn't dare admit on this forum this fact ... which I find extremely sad.

My dogs are not barkers, so an auto response collar would be no good. The intractable problem we had with Ben was his recall - NOT TO CURE HIS AGGRESSION. We had to improve the recall otherwise he would have had to stay on the lead BECAUSE of his aggression.

You would not use an ecollar to cure dog on dog aggression.

My dog has not been zapped for a very long time, so I would guess that it will make absolutely no difference to him whatsoever

Then why did you continue to reply? You do care or you wouldn't be trying to justify what you have done. Nobody has attacked you for using one of these collars but you have been rather nasty to other members because they don't agree with you.

You didn't answer my questions "How did you get him used to the collar", this is important when you use an E collar on a dog.

That is fair enough, at least you did research these collars and didn't just stick on one as most people do and you obviously adore him.


Don't be so insulting, you are accusing us for not listening when you contradict yourself and the information you are giving keeps changing. I never said I knew your dog or you so why are you now saying this? If I had to put an E collar on my dog I would consider it a failure not a success.

It was you who said you used one on your dog, you gave us the information we have even though that information keeps changing and when it has we have said we are confused.

I have had dogs with high prey drive and was able to teach them to recall using positive methods but when doing this you do have to take into account that when a dog goes into this their brain closes down, they are so focused on the prey. You chose to zap your dog to get the focus back onto you, to break the focus of a dog after prey takes quite a big shock.

It is NORMAL dog behaviour to go into prey drive, with a lot of dogs they don't get any further than the chase but to expect a dog never to go into prey drive is being unreasonable, he doesn't forget himself he is a dog being a dog.

With positive training we use the dog's NATURAL instincts to teach them how we want them to behave including the prey drive.

Not true, the zap isn't like one of those Slendertone belts, I used to have one so know what they do. That may have been the way these collars were explained to you but it is wrong.

Consistency is a must when training a dog no matter how you are training him. Most dogs, intelligent or not, don't get it almost immediately and many redirect the zap to come from someone or something else which can cause problems.

What I have put in bold I find very worrying, discomfort doesn't have any place in dog training just as it doesn't with children or any other animal, discomfort is negative, yes it will teach them not to do something but it is much better to teach them something positive.

So the "Command" was before the zap.

A well trained dog doesn't need a "Vibrate" to respond to his owner.

I do give you full marks for admitting that you use one but your explanations haven't been very good unfortunately.

This is what has been so confusing, at first you said it was for his aggression and not recall.

I have seen a dog zapped when in prey drive, it was awful, I was in tears. When a dog goes into prey drive the rest of their brain closes down because they are so focused on the prey. To get through that the zap has to be high, this owner kept raising the zap, it was at the top when it stopped the dog, the dog screamed as well, something I hope I never hear again.

There is nothing that can be dog with Ben now that the collar is being used on him but please look into how dogs learn and how their brain works, it may help.

Nothing changed, there is no confusion, I probably did not explain myself properly at the beginning.

But just to set the record straight - the e collar was used on Ben to train a reliable recall, nothing else. The REASON we wanted a reliable recall was because he was and is unreliable with SOME large males, particularly black labradors. If you have a dog who is DA, then you either need to keep him on the lead the whole time, or train him to be 100% re recall. We chose the latter ... and to do that, we had to (as a last resort) use an e collar.

Hopefully now that has cleared up any misunderstandings!

It is indeed NORMAL, entirely normal, for dogs to have a high prey drive. I have no problems with my dogs chasing and bringing down rabbits and squirrels, but what I cannot have is Ben disappearing off over the horizon hot on the heels of a deer and ignoring my recall. Having tried everything, including consultation with dog trainers, we went to the last resort of e collar. It was this or euthanise, because we were not prepared to keep Ben on the lead 24/7. Whether or not you agree with that, is up to you. But for me, I could never ever consider keeping a large dog on a leash 24/7, I like to see my dogs running free but under control. The second we call out "Come", Ben immediately turns and comes back to us. We have achieved what we wanted to achieve.

Now we have to work on his aggression towards black labs. For this, we will not use the e collar simply because it will only make his aggression worse, not better. He will associate the zap as coming from the other dog, and this would only make him even more aggressive. There is no point using an e collar after the red mist has come down, none whatsoever.

I wasn't aware that I had been rude at all whatsoever - indeed, I have taken great pains not to be. If you think that me saying I don't care a fig what people think about me is being rude, then clearly we don't live on the same wavelength! Apologies though if you consider I have been rude

All dogs are different - I am sure that many, if not most, dogs will respond well to positive training methods - but my Ben does not. With dogs as with all animals, you sometimes have to accept that what works for one will not work for all.

It jolly well is!! I have used both, and they both work in the same way - I used to have a Slendertone machine, and the e collar we have is a Dogtra. It is nothing like an electric shock as from, eg, an electric socket.

I can see I am getting nowhere. Let's just shake on it and agree that clearly we are never going to agree - so let's just accept that all dogs are different - yours respond well to positive training, my Ben does not.

I really think it would be a great idea if we could have a Dogsey get together so I could demonstrate how amazing my boy Ben is. Then you would see that the dog is not in the least traumatised wearing his collar - indeed, he nearly knocks you over with excitement when you are trying to put it on because he knows he is going for walkies!

Only you have suggested that an electric shock from these collars can be/can not be related to an electric socket, as these collars work on batteries they can't be compared to electric sockets which are mains electric and are a lot more powerful. A battery can give quite a shock as Cyril found out when he weed on my extension cable, he really is stupid.

Something I keep meaning to say but get side tracked, a lot of trainers and behaviourists don't have any experience of aggressive dogs, when they can't help the owner they tell them to get them pts which is wrong, there are many trainers who can help the owner turn their dogs round.

I was out one day with 2 of my dogs when a lady approached, as she got nearer her dog started to react, I took mine into the side of the road, it was a single track lane, so she could get past. Her dog was so bad that I asked her to stop, go back a few paces then stand and talk to me. Within a few minutes her dog stopped reacting to mine, when he was calm I suggested that she moves forward one step at a time slowly, if her dog tenses to stop and carry on talking. It was during this time that I heard her story and was shocked. By taking one step at a time she got her dog past without him reacting and with this she used to ask owners to let her do this, the dog really improved.

Her story, he was a rescue and she wasn't told he was DA, she asked a behaviourist to come and see him which she did bringing her 5 Collies with her. She let her dogs out of the car, they raced into the house and attacked her dog who defended himself. She then told the lady that her dog was too far gone and he needs to be pts. She was devastated, she adored this dog and couldn't bring herself to pts him. After that conversation I had with her he started to improve. No wonder her dog was frightened of other dogs if he had been attacked in his own home by 5 collies.

No, you wouldn't get me there if you were going to use an E collar on a dog no matter which dog it was, I went into them very deeply to before I condemned them, I found out how to introduce a dog to the collar, how to assess what level to have the collar on, how and when to use them etc.

You still haven't answered my question, how did you introduce him to the collar?

No ... an electric socket is not necessarily more, or less, powerful than a battery - it depends on the battery!

I have owned and used a Slendertone machine, and I own and have used an e collar on my arm - it is exactly the same - it causes the muscles to contract - the higher the setting, the more powerful the muscle contraction. I used to wind up my Slendertone quite high and it was like a punch in the stomach, most unpleasant but not painful - pain lasts, the unpleasant sensation you get from a Slendertone, or from an e collar, does not last.

All 3 trainers/behaviourists had had experience of DA dogs ... which is precisely why we chose them. There would not be a lot of point in paying out good money to someone who had had no experience of your particular problem.

What is the point of quoting other dogs' experience at me? We are not talking about other dogs, we are talking about MY dog - clearly, you do not know anything about northern breed types if you think that all dogs can be trained and treated in the same way. Ask ANY owner of a mal, a husky, samoyed, CWD, Saarloos, whatever, and they will all tell you that these dogs are VERY different. That is not to say that they would consider using an e collar on their dog, I am not saying that, I am just saying that you keep throwing other dogs' experiences at me, when this is just not relevant.

As for last paragraph, you clearly have not listened to a word I have said!!

WE DO NOT HAVE TO USE THE COLLAR ON BEN ANY MORE ... he WEARS it, my husband carries the controller in his pocket just in case ... but he has not had to use the zapper certainly in my presence for a long time. A reminder once or twice with the vibrate setting, yes, but not the stim setting.

So you see you would not be upset, what you would most likely do is fall in the love with the most gorgeous, loveable 45 kg bundle of naughtiness that you are ever likely to see!!

I am serious - if anyone is up for a meet, I am more than willing to show off my beautiful boys!

Sorry - I forgot to say about the e collar.

We put it on him ... that's how we introduced it. Let him get used to wearing an extra collar.

Well I've had several terriers all had terrific prey drive but never felt the need to give them shocks I use a lead and harness and have only had a couple of deaths when it was entirely my fault I didn't see the rabbits or rats before they did. Have two with zero recall at the moment one with senility and the other just absolutely stubborn LOL neither will be given shocks just a lead and harness and we have happy dogs who know we would never hurt them.