me as a start!!!!I love the theory you have. Keep your dogs character and natural behaviours but they stop exactly when asked. I worry sometimes about over training/conditioning dogs and losing their personality.

I can do it with my three kids but struggle with Fudge!!!

In CM Learned helpnessess is very different, its where we have seen dogs shut down (VERY quickly) in some cases to get him to stop what he is doing to them.

Teaching a dog a recall by not letting them make a mistake & rewarding the best efforts is not the same thing.

Ahhhh thankyou!!!!!! im now! thats one of the nicest things!!!!

They arent Angels, but its like what you look for in a man...theres no prefect man...its just what you can put up with!

Then you like I have a well balanced pack, Brilliant. It doesn't matter how you achieve it, just that you do.

I don't have many rules either, those I do have are there for a reason, my reason.

My word is law, I am the boss, call it what you will, but I expect an instant response.
I do object to the dogs jumping all over anyone, (unless by invitation) they greet in a calm way.
They walk through doorways calmly, they need me to open the door but I don't care who goes first.
They don't sit on the furniture because I don't want them to, not because I think it will give them ideas of world domination.
I do frequently sit on the floor with them and they are welcome to lay all over me.
Growling as a warning is fine, but nothing more. They have learnt to lay together chewing bones and treats etc. They are not allowed to nick each others but they can and do swap. No bullying behaviour allowed.
They come when called every single time, when I call and not in there own sweet time.
No I wouldn't tolerate growling at me, nor have any of them ever tried it.
When off lead to come when called and stay with me unless released.
To walk on and ignore anything I tell them to be it another dog, horse, bike, child whatever.
To trust me to be a good leader is what it comes down to.

Not so different are we?

OK, so it's his approach you don't like rather than the fact that he's making use of learned helplessness?

Can I ask a question about this point (not just to you myshflynn as it's a view that's been expressed by many others):

If this is a bad thing (and I really have no clue whether it is or isn't), then would you let another dog do it to your dog?

To explain....my pup is VERY confident. She loves to play and can be a real pain in the neck. I've always read that socialisation is very important, so since the day we got her she's been out in the park, off-lead and interacting with dogs. Now often she doesn't get the message that other dogs don't want to play with her. Occasionally a dog will bark or snarl at her or bite the back of her neck and pin her down. I have to say that I'm pleased when this happens because I'd rather she learned where to draw the line from a dog that was 'nice' than risk not reading the signs and getting mauled by an aggressive dog.

What are your views on this? Is it a bad thing to let other dogs 'shut yours down' in this way? Should owners allow their dogs to do this to other dogs?

If a dog goes into learned helplessness, it probably isn't learning anything as it's literally shut down. It's given up trying.

Dogs controlling other dogs aren't really shutting them down IMO

Here's a bit about learned helplessness, tis not a pleasant thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/FINAL.P...p/00000062.htm

Hi spettadog you are not alone, others here don't approve of CM and his methods and we have said so before in other threads and given the reasons why, it just seems pointless to keep repeating oneself.

My maxim with dogs has always been in the words of Hippocrates 'to help, or at least to do no harm' I have trained many dogs over the years and have never felt the need to choke/bully/lay them on the floor and hold them down or to use any other aggressive means to force my will on my dogs. Instead I rely on building trust and this is done with the use of kindness and patience .

It also takes a lot of time to train dogs the gentle way, some people would rather have 'the quick fix' even if it leads to further problems down the line in the form of fear aggression, or a dog associating an event with a previous experience (like being alpha rolled ) and reacting badly. The cameras won't be around to see that.

So if people want to extol the virtues of CM that is their opinion, others see him in a very different light.

no not at all!!!!
Apaert from flynn will bash doors until they are opened for him! bless! i dont mind it! OH dosent like his great big paw prints!!!!

When dogs tell another dog off, & the dog Submits, its not the same as a dog that is trapped & strung up so it cant get away & it "gives in" so that behavoiur will stop. Its not the same thing!!!!!!

My dogs dont really bother with other dogs, they dont mind dogs tagging along with them on a walk, but they dont take much notice, I DONT let my puppies run up to strange dogs so they can tell them off, when my pups are young they do meet other dogs out but if i see some coming i call them all back so they are around me when i meet the other dogs.I dont like my dogs bounding up to ther dogs & people & demanding that they play with them,as i said they should be more bothered about me not other dogs! If we pass walkers with dogs they usually exchange a quick sniff & mingle & walk on, Flynn might have a flirt & a play for a second, but they arent bothered.

My OHs dogs run up to other dogs & it drives me up the wall! i think its so rude!!!!! He dosent listen to me though!!!!

Agree Minihaha

Yep, there's plenty of us out here

Here's a website for interesting info on all sorts relating to the programme:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

including some excellent links for learning about animal behaviour, info about flooding, body language, stress etc.

The next bit is called "answering the fans" and gives the point of view many others including myself share...

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Discussed are "I've never seen him hurt a dog"
"Are critics jealous?"
"positive methods don't work on red zone dogs"
(not true ) and more of the oft brought up discussions between his supporters and his detractors.

Wys
x