the heeling vid , upset me more than the first one, poor poor little dog, how happy (not) he looked when u patted him (sort of) on the head

The vid titled ''rough heeling'', is the one with the toy that I directed MF/CAD too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKee0rTjZ2U

If kruse has a point to make (about training) I suggeted he makes it. If its word play or semantics, I couldn't care less lol.

Btw games are great, but pointless if the dog isn't interested or is more interested in something else lol.

Adam

On that vid.i hadnt seen it& its better than the other one thankgod.

1. Whats with the lead swinging? is that a extra "aid"
2. They arent at heel, they are forward of you, so youve taught them to walk wide & forward, if they were on a lead the lead would be tight
3. jacca istrying so so so hard to get it right
4. he loves his bally, so why you didnt train him with his ball i dont know
5. the collie is doing abit of lip licking looks worried
6. the main bit i didnt like is when they stopped after the ball throw, not comfy

Very (very) short clip, but may I ask, does the little JRT have a problem in his rear legs/hips/lower spine? If not, does he always walk so stiff legged on the rear end?

Can't make my mind up if he is on high alert or whether there may be another reason for it. On the very brief run forward, his legs look better, more relaxed, but the brevity of the clip shows very little to be honest

There`s some better heel work here, Adam - enjoy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7F7G...eature=related

Adam

I have complinented your politeness in the face of abusive posts.
I always considered you were you own man with considered thought processes.

However, it was pointed out in the first video your JRT was displaying clear and substantial stress signs.

To which you had no explanation.

Then you come back to the thread after a bit of a gap and suddenly have this strange leap of logic.
And which, oddly, mirrors posts by LC.
So it does seem you realised that we were on to something, your dog was displaying stress at your e collar training, so instead of processing and examining that info, you have gone off in search of a token line to rebuff it.

I may be wrong, but sometimes fish smells like fish.

You take the line that the time the dog takes to get his treat is 'the suffering of stress'. And go on to say that is equal to the stress displayed by e collar training.

Now, if im excited and waiting for my dinner, true, it may raise my levels and be technically regarded as stress.
That relates to the sense of expectation, like santa at xmas.
But to say that is comparable to the stress i would receive from an electic shock and that i am 'suffering' is pushing the bounds of credibility somewhat.

It is a disingenuous argument.

However, let us assume your line is right and lets run with it.
You are saying that excitement over treats/toys masks the stress signs, which is why you see them on your e collar video but not in a treat training scenario (convenient get out clause their, btw ).

Then you own argument surely comes back to bite you?
If both experiences are unpleasant 'sufferings of stress' (my phrase) (btw, the implication is you are now admitting that the ecollar experience is an unpleasant suffering of stress), then if you scale it, surely the ecollar one is way worse?
As you say, the excitment (ie, positive joyous feelings associated with the expectation of getting food or play) is high enough to mask the stress signs the dog is really feeling.
Yet the ecollar one obviously cannot have a high enough level of joy/ pleasure/ excitement to motivate the dog to suppress his stress signs!
This means he cannot be overawed at the expectation of getting an electric zap!

Hence the irony of you own argument, which you are missing.

however, i am sure you can continue to find more round holes for these square pegs as well.

Maybe of you own accord

Ive just watches the video, and if thats your idea of heelwork,then obviously I'm not doing it right!!!!!!!!! These dogs do not look happy with the situation,the poor collie looks so unhappy and stressed, the terrier aint happy either and he loves his ball...use it.your voice doesnt help either you use the same tone all the time..my lot love it if I go into silly mode,if the dog is right at least let him hear it in your tone of voice

I watched that before. I am surprised you called that heeling? at best I would call it a focus exercise

From watching it I have a few points
Both your dogs are v stressed, in a way I dont see with people who use totaly reward based training
Jacca (I think he is) has such a worried face and is trying sooo hard bless his little heart, but he shows such worry that he is going to get things wrong
When he sits he curls up his paw as an appeasment at least twice
He only becomes animated when running far the ball, but he becomes fearful again once he has the ball
I would say he is also confused as to what you are wanting from him and he does not in any way associate the ball as a reward for the work, if he did he would be as animated doing the work. If properly reward trained then a dog sees the 'work' AS exciting (if not more) than the reward

as other people have said the collie is also lip licking and looking stressed, which for a collie, with a ball about is just not usual

So yes, when you say using rewards causes stress to dogs - in the case of your dogs it does, I would say it is becuase they are used to being punished for behaiving 'wrong' and find training stressful

check out this vid
http://www.youtube.com/user/yolle555#p/u/17/OtkTJ6ZvlH0
and see how unstressed the dogs are, doing heelwork to them IS rewarding and fun

Nice clip, Ben. And the dogs were in the correct position, and looking happy.
Nice to see a trainer who knows what they are doing.

Lead swinging is actually the cord on the camera.

Yes they walk wide and ahead, hence ''rough heeling'' as a title. I would get fed up of tripping over them if they walked close!

Jacca is a tryer, for sure, yes he loves the ball, but had rescource issue when first got so wasn't save to use it around the others.

When they stopped they were waiting to see if I was gonna ask for it back and through it again!

Adam