I feed my lot a mix of raw/cooked meat and kibble and have not had problems with it, so it is possible
but as said some dogs seem ok with a mixed diet some seem better on one or the other

Interesting subject. I have only been feeding raw for 3 months. Before i fed jameswellbeloved, their teeth were always dirty (with regular brushing), breaths smelt horrid, they had loose stools alot, they also pooped alot, they had dry skin.

Since feeding raw everything has improved, i will never feed dry again and the dogs are always looking forward to their food.

They eat this over a weeks period:-

chicken wings
chicken carcasses
rib racks
breast of lamb
chunked hearts
chunked tripe
occasionally rabbit and venison
along with mince meat of a different variety everyday including some veg mixes. My chihuahua has been fed on it through pregnancy and will be fed on it throughout lactation and the puppies will be reared on it, bones and all.

it would be good to know what you are feeding

as said before on the group there are lots of posts of problems because it is new people who have not researched the diet enough
also most of the new people are not changing for a fad or fashion but because they are at their wits end trying to get their dog healthy on a orocessed diet

a question i would love the answer to
if kibble is so good for dogs why do they get so sick when you change to another kibble? or another food

most dogs on a raw, home made or a mixture diet can eat just about anything but often a solely kibble fed dog gets a v squitty bum just changing brand

in my experience of raw people i have spoke to have the least problems with a goid prey model diet

the problems you are talking about could be due to several things

intolerance to one protien source
possibly caused by not introducing the mixture of foods slowly enough to asses which foods the dog could cope with

overfeeding
i have one dog who gets the runny bum if toom much food and the other is sick. check amounts 2 to 3% of the dogs weight
daily is fine.

grass eating can be normal, might be something missing from diet, i would add tripe or for male dogs there might be a bitch in heat and they are taisting not eating the grass


bringing up bone might be feeding too much bone for the dog to digest or digestive upset might have caused the tum to not be acidic enough to cope with the bone for now. i would cut back bone for now and add tripe or digestive enzyme suppliment to support the system till the dog is at full health

i have been feeding ben raw for over a year now and my wee foster has been on raw for a week now with no problem except the once i gave her too big a meal

oh and for whoever asked about the human mince
they cant live only on that but its pretty good
cheep and a good mix of meats, one day a week bones and organs and thats an ok diet

Just a quick word of warning. Whilst researching diet for my own dog I came accross a lot of breeders who claimed that whilst they fed raw diets they had a lot of still born puppies. Many of them put it down to the raw food, but it seems that it is in fact that the typical raw diet doesn't contain carbs. Whilst there is no dietry *need* for carbs for most dogs (this is not to say that lots of dogs won't do better on carbs - mine does) there is a need for carbs in pregnant dogs if you want to give the pups the best possible chance of surviving and thriving.

Your best bet is to talk this through with your vet. I believe that a lot of research has been done on the subject so he should be able to give you hard facts and figures. It's not the raw that's the problem, but you need to make sure that you have the correct balance of fat, carbs and protein - and as I understand it a typical low carb/carb free raw diet won't give the pups the best chance of survival. I *think* I remember reading that something like 26% carbs is recommended, but I'm not certain.

I don't understand why a pregnant dog would need carbs? Do pregnant dogs in the wild eat carbs?

Can you tell us how many breeders you herad this from Scarter and what other factors may or may not have contributed to the stll born puppies? What breeds of dog were they? What exactly were the breeders feeding? How many stillborn pups were there? Was it whole litters or one or two pups?

I think with a post like that you need to give more facts before potentially scaring someone who has a pregnant dog.

I have kept out of this for a while because I fed raw and changed to a good quality (some would say)dry complete simply because I get it VERY cheap through work. BUT I have only recently gone back to the raw diet I had been feeding my dogs for many years simply because my dogs are now not looking as great as they did, their coats have gone dull and lifeless, they moult a lot now, their teeth are looking yellowish, they dont look as in good condition even though they are getting the same exercise they have always had. When I had my dogs on raw, I bred a litter, my bitch sailed through the pregnancy no complications whatsoever, a smooth delivery of the pups, had plenty of milk, pups were weaned onto the raw diet and thrived. on the other hand, my last litter same bitch, who was already now on the dry complete diet, had complications from the get go, after mating she started to lose blood, test were done it was found she had bladder stones ( no bladder stones were evedent previously) AB's were given right through the pregnancy, further complications arose, three weeks before the pups were due she was leaking fluid and some blood loss scans showed that the pups were not doing too great and would possibly die, she was put on bed rest to try and get her to her due date, a week before the pups were due she started to lose green gunk, she was taken to emergency vets who advised me that a C section would be required and we had probably lost the litter, c section was done, we lost half the litter, detatched placentas, the remaining pups were small and fragile and we were advised they may not make it, but Thankfully even after c section Willow accepted the pups immediately and fed them, their health did turn round and they all started to thrive, they are now 10 months old in their new homes and of the best of health, some of them are being fed the raw diet and are doing great. so I have seen personally the difference between raw and dry complete in pregnancy and if I could go back in time I would have been feeding her raw during it. I actually nearly lost my beloved Willow and this much planned and awaited litter IMO because of the food I fed her. I feed a wide variety of meats, some veg and the odd bit of pasta if I have any left over from our meals, I am hoping to get them looking how they used to look, and I also wanted to add I noticed while they were on the dry feed they were a little more "hyper" on the raw diet they were a LOT calmer and seemed fully satisfied, when feeding the dry feed, they Always seemed to be looking for that bit extra, chasing us into the kitchen when we were taking our plates in there to see if anything was on the offer, on the raw this didnt happen.
just my observations from feeding dry and raw.

mo

Mo - so sorry to hear of your Willow's difficult pregnancy and the loss of some of the litter. Hope you get your lot as fighting fit as they were previously on raw.

I raw feed, and for me at least, it is the way to go.

The ancecdotal evidence about pregnant dogs doing badly on raw diets ia sketchy ( in my mind at least - it wasn't relevant to me ), but cropped up in several places. Also, the anecdotal stories didn't blame it on carbs, but rather on raw feeding. It's not something that's relevant to me so I don't remember the details. But I tend take anecdotal evidence with a pinch of salt. I wouldn't have mentioned it on the basis of that alone. (When I have time I'll try a quick search and see if I can find any links for anyone that finds anecdotal evidence to be compelling).

However, whilst it's not mentioned in relation to a raw diet, the need for carbohydrates in pregnant bitches is documented in more than one animal nutrition text books that I've read. Apparantly there have been extensive studies carried out. And the *symptoms* of lack of carbs was similar to those reported in the anecdotal stories re raw feeding. So I think there's a good possibility that the breeders who had problems when feeding raw diets weren't loosing pups because of the raw food, but rather because of the nutritional composition of the diets they were feeding their pregnant bitches.

I'm pointing out that there might be a problem so that people can check it out for themselves with their vets. Alarm bells rang when I read that a lady that has only been feeding raw to her dogs for three months has mentioned that she's giving that diet to her pregnant dog. It may well be that she's already looked into this and has taken expert advice or researched it thoroughly. But I know I'd like to be given a heads up on something like this if it might affect my dog. I'm not suggesting anyone take my word for it, and I have no wish to debate it.

Now if anyone is interested in a layperson's UNDERSTANDING of why this is then here goes. (But talk to your vet).

Dogs have a requirement for glucose. Glucose can be "manufactured" from protein, which is why dogs don't strictly need carbohydrates in their diet (Although many do much better with varying percentages of carbs - mine is one of them!). However, at times when energy needs are high and anabolic processes are proceeding at an active rate (e.g. during growth, gestation and lactation), it is best to supply a food containing readily digestible carbhohydrates and starches. If my understanding is correct, you might well get away with increasing the protein content of your dog's diet (after all, dogs are increadibly adaptable and can thrive on a huge variety of diets - including vegitarian!). Although I would have thought that would put more strain on the dog's system than simply giving it the carbs it needs to produce sufficient glucose.

Now it's a no brainer for people feeding specially formulated kibble to their pregnant dogs as they will no doubt put their dog on a special formula. But a kibble that has the wrong balance of nutrients will be just as bad as a raw or home cooked diet that's not balanced correctly. But anyone feeding a home prepared diet would probably want to find out exactly what changes in diet are necessary when their dog is pregnant. If you are feeding a 'normal' dog the perfect ratio of fat and protein then it seems to me that a pregnant dog with a much greater need for glucose will need a different diet. The text books (that I've read) state that the recommended minimum percentage of carbs is (I think) 26%. But it may well be that you can increase protein levels instead if you have a dog that for some reason can't tollerate carbs (of if you're strongly opposed to feeding carbs for personal reasons).

Ours never have We have always fed a complete food and if for some reason I wish to change it or run out I can easily change from one meal to the next I have only once had a problem and it turned out the dog had picked up an infection.

My mother does the same thing and has never had a problem - nor have any of the dogs that come to stay (mum does boarding and although most come with thier own food sometimes people forget)

I missed this thread so haven't read all the replies, although from what I have read I think Sarah covered all the points I would have made.

IMO there are many great ways to feed a dog, and several great commercial foods, however, I truly wouldn't include Hills in that - from what I've read elsewhere it doesn't have the great reputation vets claim and it really doesn't do what it says on the packet.

Anyway, on the point about vets and the claim that they are biaised and primarily taught nutrition by pet food manufacturers, here's a great interview I only found today with Donald Strombeck, a well respected vet who advocates home cooked food, NOT raw food and NOT pet food - in this interview he confirms what has happened to the nutritional aspects of vet education...

http://www.thebark.com/ezine/living_...Interview.html