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morganstar
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07-02-2011, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Kerriebaby View Post
I am on the fence when it comes to the show vs working.
In my eyes, they should be one and the same. Plus I think that show dogs should be required to "do" what they were bred to do as part of the showing/breeding process (if that makes sense) In my eyes, a cocker should be able (and do) a days shooting, and then be in the ring the next day.
In the case of breeds who were bred as companion dogs, they should have to be PAT dogs, or similar. On top of that, all dogs should have health testing, and temperament testing before being allowed to breed (which should again be part of the working/showing/breeding process)

There are very bad show breeders, as there are very bad working breeders. The reverse is also true. I have no problem with people x'ing breeds to make an animal more suited to what they need (for a job or a sport) IF health tests are done, and permanent homes can be found (ie no morons allowed)

In the case of "working" bred dogs being too much for people, is it not the case that these people maybe shouldnt have got a Springer/Cocker/Lab in the first place, and should have got a breed that is more suited to their lifestyle? Getting a show bred one purely because you may get one that is easier to manage is (IMHO) a daft logic.

As for whether working breeders stick to the breed description, same can be said for show breeders. Some Rough Collies I have seen look like giant Poms, and some of the GSD's around here are very badly bred (and Having spoken to their owners come from a show breeder here in Kent)

I dont mind the concept of Crufts (tho having been, I got annoyed with not being able to move) but I do think the whole show concept needs to be completely overhauled, and health testing enforced.
That would be a problem with the docking ban, in my breed the ones that work there Welsh still dock and show but are unable to enter where the public pay entry so you dont see them at Crufts.
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Loki's mum
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07-02-2011, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Kerriebaby View Post
I am on the fence when it comes to the show vs working.
In my eyes, they should be one and the same. Plus I think that show dogs should be required to "do" what they were bred to do as part of the showing/breeding process (if that makes sense) In my eyes, a cocker should be able (and do) a days shooting, and then be in the ring the next day.
In the case of breeds who were bred as companion dogs, they should have to be PAT dogs, or similar. On top of that, all dogs should have health testing, and temperament testing before being allowed to breed (which should again be part of the working/showing/breeding process)

There are very bad show breeders, as there are very bad working breeders. The reverse is also true. I have no problem with people x'ing breeds to make an animal more suited to what they need (for a job or a sport) IF health tests are done, and permanent homes can be found (ie no morons allowed)

In the case of "working" bred dogs being too much for people, is it not the case that these people maybe shouldnt have got a Springer/Cocker/Lab in the first place, and should have got a breed that is more suited to their lifestyle? Getting a show bred one purely because you may get one that is easier to manage is (IMHO) a daft logic.

As for whether working breeders stick to the breed description, same can be said for show breeders. Some Rough Collies I have seen look like giant Poms, and some of the GSD's around here are very badly bred (and Having spoken to their owners come from a show breeder here in Kent)

I dont mind the concept of Crufts (tho having been, I got annoyed with not being able to move) but I do think the whole show concept needs to be completely overhauled, and health testing enforced.
Just out of interest, how would you do a working trial for a guarding breed? I know that my bitch can do her job, but how would I prove it?
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Kerriebaby
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07-02-2011, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by Loki's mum View Post
Just out of interest, how would you do a working trial for a guarding breed? I know that my bitch can do her job, but how would I prove it?
I didnt word it correctly.

Your guarding breed would do something appropriate to its breed (ie to what the breed was created to do/its purpose if you get my meaning) Gundogs would do exactly that, Border Collies would be expected to work sheep/livestock
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Jackie
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07-02-2011, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
And I wonder what makes working bred springers or working bred collies the first choice as a pet for some people? Is it the fact they are more widely available? They are cheaper? You can in many cases go with your money and take your pup away without any questions asked?

I don't have these answers, just pondering really.

My guess would be the above,
Originally Posted by Kerriebaby View Post
I didnt word it correctly.

Your guarding breed would do something appropriate to its breed (ie to what the breed was created to do/its purpose if you get my meaning) Gundogs would do exactly that, Border Collies would be expected to work sheep/livestock
Like bull baiting / running behind carriages, and other such like, its not as easy as saying all dogs should be able to do the job they were bred for, some of the jobs are extinct, so how do you prove the dogs worth then!
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Loki's mum
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07-02-2011, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Kerriebaby View Post
I didnt word it correctly.

Your guarding breed would do something appropriate to its breed (ie to what the breed was created to do/its purpose if you get my meaning) Gundogs would do exactly that, Border Collies would be expected to work sheep/livestock
Yes but her purpose is to walk with a flock of goats for a couple of miles then lie down on a rock and watch for predators for a few hours whilst the goats graze. Then if anything comes along that she doesn't like she will stand and bark till it goes away. How do you prove that a dog can do that? I don't have a flock of goats Essentially her job is to warn and then attack any danger. Livestock guards should never be taught bite work, so there really is no way of testing it in a public arena.
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Jackie
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07-02-2011, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Loki's mum View Post
Yes but her purpose is to walk with a flock of goats for a couple of miles then lie down on a rock and watch for predators for a few hours whilst the goats graze. Then if anything comes along that she doesn't like she will stand and bark till it goes away. How do you prove that a dog can do that? I don't have a flock of goats Essentially her job is to warn and then attack any danger. Livestock guards should never be taught bite work, so there really is no way of testing it in a public arena.
And what about the lap dogs, how do you give them an appropriate test to determine their job!
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x-clo-x
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07-02-2011, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
And what about the lap dogs, how do you give them an appropriate test to determine their job!
have a chair in the ring and see if they get comfy on your knee while you have a cuppa
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Luke
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07-02-2011, 04:57 PM
But in many cases as pointed out, there wouldn't be a logical way of testing the fit for original function of a breed. Therefore the concept of conformation judging comes in, yet could be made MORE rellevant and be judged as an opinion of the dogs suitability for its job (which would bring in the soundness of structure, and health, temperament etc) as opposed to just judging against a written down standard of the dogs blueprint to be perfect as in many cases I cease to see how being the right height, colour, having the right tail set would be important. In some cases I see, spannable terriers, colour being relative to job etc, but not in all. I've not worded this well, but it's been a stressful day but basically the concept of conformation judging imo needs to be altered to also revolve around the individual dog and suiting its original purpose as opposed to being judged against a blueprint of it, that still doesn't make sense! I give in but I'll be at crufts anyway!
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Pidge
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07-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Kerriebaby View Post
I am on the fence when it comes to the show vs working.
In my eyes, they should be one and the same. Plus I think that show dogs should be required to "do" what they were bred to do as part of the showing/breeding process (if that makes sense) In my eyes, a cocker should be able (and do) a days shooting, and then be in the ring the next day.
In the case of breeds who were bred as companion dogs, they should have to be PAT dogs, or similar. On top of that, all dogs should have health testing, and temperament testing before being allowed to breed (which should again be part of the working/showing/breeding process)

There are very bad show breeders, as there are very bad working breeders. The reverse is also true. I have no problem with people x'ing breeds to make an animal more suited to what they need (for a job or a sport) IF health tests are done, and permanent homes can be found (ie no morons allowed)

In the case of "working" bred dogs being too much for people, is it not the case that these people maybe shouldnt have got a Springer/Cocker/Lab in the first place, and should have got a breed that is more suited to their lifestyle? Getting a show bred one purely because you may get one that is easier to manage is (IMHO) a daft logic.

As for whether working breeders stick to the breed description, same can be said for show breeders. Some Rough Collies I have seen look like giant Poms, and some of the GSD's around here are very badly bred (and Having spoken to their owners come from a show breeder here in Kent)

I dont mind the concept of Crufts (tho having been, I got annoyed with not being able to move) but I do think the whole show concept needs to be completely overhauled, and health testing enforced.
Nice idea, but not practical at all I'm afraid.

We don't have any show type Springers round here. I've only ever seen one irl and it was having a leisurely stroll on lead around town. I chose the working type because I wanted a dog that was abit bonkers and looked scruffy and up for anything.
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