*Some off topic posts removed. Please keep the thread on topic*

Yes, my current BSD has also been extremely challenging over the years ... I've got her over fear aggression, and going round behind people without dogs and trying to trip them up, amongst other things

Áll done with no dominance but reward based training

Wys
x

Did you vote for Other Ben Mcfuzzlugs or for No? Just wondering

Wys
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That's at least 3 who are Not Alpha then and who voted Other.

Yes definitely.It's interesting seeing what peeps feel about their relationship with their own dogs. I like "synergy"

Wys
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Lovely post LS. We don't share the same viewpoint re alpha, but I very much like your word synergy - a symbiotic energy. Tai and I have an excellent synergy, would be a fair statement I think.

Hal and I did too, but with him it was on a completely different basis which was not founded on obedience ... anything but !!

That made me laugh !! Sounds a real character !

There's just one comment I would make though Wys. It's great that you have achieved so much with your dog, but you say it has taken years. This is not a criticism, just an observation - I believe you would have achieved exactly the same result in a very much shorter time by using the Pack theory mode (for want of a better expression) and establishing yourself as Alpha Female. This is not done with dominance, I've decided I don't like that word as it has connotations of physical abuse - I may have used the word myself in the past, but I would not describe myself as dominating my dog. If I dominated him, he would have no freedom to do anything without looking to me first for permission, and this is definitely not the case !

What do you think about my suggestion that you could have achieved what you have in a much shorter time span, with absolutely no harm done to your dog? I hear people over and over again say "my dog would never tolerate this, or that, because she has been so abused". We are not all like CM you know ! I use his techniques, but I am not as strict as him, I don't use the CM nudge for instance, simply because it doesn't work with my dog, I have a feeling it would not work with any wolfy breed. I am firm, but fair. Tai is not good at sitting, sometimes it takes a few "sit's!" before he obeys, but I never give in, I go on and on until he sits. This is being a good alpha - it is certainly NOT being dominant, or traumatising a dog. Whatever I do it is for a purpose. I don't expect my dog to perform what I consider to be silly and pointless tricks, like dancing to music. In return for him having a wonderful life with excellent food and at least two long walkies per day plus exciting bike rides through woods and fields, I expect him to respect me, to look up to me as alpha female and OH as alpha male.

I set the rules, boundaries and limitations for my dog, and I expect him to adhere to them, which he pretty well does. I ensure that he continues to do so by displaying good Pack leadership and consistently sticking to the rules. It is a wonderfully gentle way of training, I am confused by people exclaiming in horror that this wouldn't work with a traumatised dog !

***creeps in****

I don't think heel work to music is a silly trick. It's handler and dog working together and having fun plus it makes the dog use it's brain and Ithink they have great fun doing it. It's not something I will be doing (not classes near here) as we have just started with agility but I think it's more than just teaching tricks.

Sorry if this has already been covered, I must have missed it . When people talk about pack theory and technique what do they actually mean? What is the technique.

To me I think of alpha rolling, jabbing the neck, going through doors first, ignoring dog until they are calm, only giving attention when you want and calling the dog to you, not giving attention when the dog wants it and stuff like that.
I'm probably wrong in thinking that so please correct me. It's interesting to know as I think everyone has a different idea of what they mean by pack leadership.
It's a theory we bought into with our last dog and it went really wrong.

***creeps back out***

hi Janie !! You don't need to creep here ! this is the NICE Dogsey thread that allows people to have differing views, which they can discuss and debate without getting nasty and falling out ! We are trying to go for the record of the nicest and longest Dogsey thread !

There is far far more to being a good pack leader than alpha rolling, pinning and jabbing ! I think the downside of the Dog Whisperer programme is that of time limitation. If we actually saw every second of the filming of CM with each dog, we would see far less of the so-called alpha stuff of mimicing the bite of the bitch, and more reward for the correct behaviour. That said, I will try and succinctly describe what I consider to be good Pack leader behaviour, good Alpha Female behaviour.

Firstly, my dog is allowed on my bed by invitation, he is allowed to walk in front of me through doors and down stairs, he is not an automaton, he is allowed to be a dog first and foremost. This is not makes up a good alpha, or Pack leader as I prefer. This is what I do.

I reward my dog's good behaviour and balance with praise. When he is being demanding - leaping up and down, and round and round in excitement before we go out for a walk, nothing happens until he is calm. He knows this, I don't even have to tell him to sit down. I just turn away, sit down and don't make eye contact with him. He instantly calms and sits, waiting for me to put the lead on or to open the door. He then gets his praise. When I open the gate onto the field, he is allowed to rush out and run free, have a pee, whatever he wants to do, whilst i get the gate shut and off we go. If we see other dogs approaching, I call him to me and keep him under control whilst I see who it is. If it is someone we know, he's allowed to go and say hello, if it's a stranger I keep him calm whilst we establish if the other dog is friendly, I never put him on the lead as it isn't necessary. 9 times out of 10 the two dogs have a game and a good time doing doggy things whilst the owners chat, whether they be strangers or not. When we walk off, I praise Tai again for being a good boy.

You see the pattern emerging? Good balanced behaviour is rewarded, bad behaviour (such as rushing across to say hello to another dog) would be criticised, and no praise would be forthcoming. This is what a good Pack leader should do. If a dog is constantly saturated with praise, or negative feelings like sympathy, or reassurance ("there, there"), then the praise means nothing any longer.

Tai is an entire male, and like all entire males, doesn't always appreciate other males trying to being dominant. He won't ever bite, but he can kick off and we have a "Pistols at Dawn" scrap where its all sound and fury but nothing else. Even if is justified and it is he who was attacked, I do not allow such behaviour and will call him off immediately, sometimes the other dog will pursue him, but I ignore him and concentrate on Tai, blocking him from the other dog, keeping him focussed on me, maintaining eye contact with him and making him sit down. This works every time, even when the other dog is leaping around trying to get at him, I just block that dog with my body and keep focussed on Tai. In other words, I protect him from attack by an unbalanced dog - this makes me alpha female in his eyes. I hve been praised many times by owners for my calmness and authority in such situations.

I could ramble on for ever Janie, but this is a taster of what I think it means to be a good Pack leader, a good Alpha female.

Incidentally, the CM nudge doesn't work on Tai, so I never use that, no point if it doesn't work. If he doesn't respond to a command, I get his attention and his eye contact and force him to obey because I AM alpha female and he knows it !! You can also see him shrugging his shoulders and saying "oh well, if you're gonna do all that dog whisperer stuff on me, then I'll have to obey I suppose !"

Thanks for taking the time to answer that Gnasher!

The thing is, what you've just desrcibed, sounds to me like how a lot of responsible dog owners would act with their dogs. So I'm not getting where the alpha bit comes from if you know what I mean?

Are we all maybe trying to do the same thing but just calling it by a different name ?
I'm pretty knew when it comes to dog behaviour although our last experience taught us a whole lot but it was fairly hands on (which made me hugely uncomfortable) and some trainers were always on about dominance (don't like that word either) and being a higher rank than my dog.

With my dog now I don't see myself as alpha female (far too soft), she's a memeber of our family and can do what she likes, get on the sofa, my bed when she wants but will get off when I tell het too.......I don't see that as me being alpha, just her having manners and understanding certain boundaries.....is that the same as being alpha?

If Maggie got in a fight with another dog then I would try and separate them and walk Maggie away and try not to make a big deal about if (unless she or the other dog was hurt), I think like you described, so that isn't much different either.

Not sure where I'm going with this as I've sort of lost my thread of thought but I hope you see what i mean.

I voted "no" because I don't believe in the whole alpha thing (my interpretation of it anyway).

To others who voted no/other what differnces do you see and what is your idea of pack leadership theory (in a training context)?

Phew.....hope that makes some sort of sense!

Hi Gnasher I don't think the things described have much to do with being Alpha or pack leader and this is the sort of technique many of us use based on common sense and experience. I think where many of us differ from you is we don't call this being pack leader or consider ourselves to be pack leader/ alpha , we are just the ones with larger brains in charge of the resources.