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Maureen19
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23-07-2010, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
I won't comment on the rest of your post as my views are very different & the use of ecollars has been discussed at length here. However I would say that if "very very good behaviourists" were the only people licensed in some way to use them, then ecollar manufacturers would go bust very quickly!! No very very good behaviourist is likely to feel the need to resort to electric shocks to modify problem behaviours. The people that buy & use them are those that can't be bothered to train using kind positive methods & just want a quick fix regardless of the damage that it may do to a dog.
I do not use these myself but I thought these forums were a chance of an open debate not a witch hunt on somelike myself who looks at both ends of the spectrum....

Maybe more dog owners whose lives these collars have have saved with have the 'courage' to post on here even if they get 'blasted out of the water'.

One thing also on the other side of this coin....when we moved to Scotland between all the farms here 7 years ago..
A sheep was killed in a field at the end, the farmer found it with his throat torn.... he had an idea of the dog that did it and got the police and vet to go around to the owner... the dog was given an emmetic straight away and when it was sick there was sheep wool and blood came up.... the dog on advice from the vet who said it could never be trust again once having killed.... that the owner was in agreement and the dog was put to sleep.....

I bet that dog would have settled for a little one off shock to his neck rather than going to his maker.

I realise none of you out there have a bit of an open mind that not all people who use these collars are dog torturers, I feel sure many do it for the opposite rason for things that can end their dogs lives

Are you all sure this man uses these on the animals Balls, if so and you hve you facts right someone do something about it to stop it....
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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23-07-2010, 12:51 PM
i taught my dog to be safe around sheep
no shocks

i first clipped he on a lead whenever sheep are about
i then teach a recal and leave it
at the same time i desensitise her to sheep by walking by sheep and rewarding her for ignoring them

all dogs should be on a lead near livestock, end of
no zap ever needed
then other training once you have made your dog and the sheep safe
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Adam P
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23-07-2010, 12:54 PM
I believe at one stage the welsh assembly were looking to restrict their use to trainers only. This isn't what I would agree with but tbh much better than a ban.
Atm any trainer is going to be to scared of prosecution to use an e collar on a clients dog, this makes it much more likely the owner will choose to use one themselves without instruction.

Wilbar, my correspondant suggests that lots of trainers/behaviourists do use them. Just because someone isn't a member of an organisation doesn't mean they aren't good, just that they disagree with your philospy on dog training and behaviour work.

Adam
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ClaireandDaisy
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23-07-2010, 12:57 PM
Quote from the RSPCA

We have welcomed the National Assembly for Wales’ decision to ban the use of electric shock collars on dogs and cats in Wales.


This is the first ban of its kind in the United Kingdom, and the Welsh Assembly Government has used its devolved powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act.


'Instruments of cruelty'

Claire Lawson, RSPCA public affairs manager for Wales said:


We are delighted with the stance that the Welsh Assembly Government has taken in banning the use of these instruments of cruelty.

They have been consigned to the dustbin of history and I hope the rest of the UK will follow suit and do the same.



Electric shock collars are used to remotely apply an electric shock, usually to the animals neck, to stop unwanted behaviour. But research clearly shows that the application of an electric shock causes both a physiological stress response and behaviours associated with pain, fear and stress in animals.

Long-term threat to an animal's welfare

We, the world's oldest animal welfare charity, responded to the Welsh Assembly Government consultations in 2008 and 2010 on the use of electric training aids. We argued that the use of such training devices can cause a long-term threat to an animal’s welfare.


Animals trained with these devices can show behaviours associated with pain and fear both during training and for some time afterwards. There is also a great potential for the misuse of these devices, either through ignorance or malice by those intent on deliberate cruelty.


Research has also shown that the use of punishment based techniques can result in, or make some behaviour problems worse.


We strongly believe that there is no place for these devices in modern animal training and recommend the use of reward based methods instead.
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wilbar
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23-07-2010, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by Maureen19 View Post
I do not use these myself but I thought these forums were a chance of an open debate not a witch hunt on somelike myself who looks at both ends of the spectrum....
Maybe more dog owners whose lives these collars have have saved with have the 'courage' to post on here even if they get 'blasted out of the water'.

One thing also on the other side of this coin....when we moved to Scotland between all the farms here 7 years ago..
A sheep was killed in a field at the end, the farmer found it with his throat torn.... he had an idea of the dog that did it and got the police and vet to go around to the owner... the dog was given an emmetic straight away and when it was sick there was sheep wool and blood came up.... the dog on advice from the vet who said it could never be trust again once having killed.... that the owner was in agreement and the dog was put to sleep.....

I bet that dog would have settled for a little one off shock to his neck rather than going to his maker.

I realise none of you out there have a bit of an open mind that not all people who use these collars are dog torturers, I feel sure many do it for the opposite rason for things that can end their dogs lives

Are you all sure this man uses these on the animals Balls, if so and you hve you facts right someone do something about it to stop it....
There was absolutely nothing in my post that could possibly be classed as a "witch hunt" against you personally. In fact all I said was that "my views are very different" and, as you say, these forums are for open debate. Just because I don't happen to agree does not mean that I'm not capable of debate.

I completely appreciate that people that live in areas where livestock are prevalent have a huge responsibility to ensure that their dogs do not attack sheep or other animals. But there are far better ways than administering electric shocks.

The "last chance saloon" mentality means that the owners of those dogs that have been able to attack livestock have not been careful enough around sheep or whatever. Why wasn't the dog on a lead around sheep if it may have attacked them? Why wasn't the garden completely secure so that a dog can't escape? Why were they walking in an area with sheep with an off lead dog in the first place? If the dog slipped it's lead then that's the owner's responsibility. Unfortunately the poor dog paid with it's life!!

And that's without going into all the training that should & could be done to help prevent incidents such as these.

I live near the South Downs ~ parts of which are rife with sheep at certain times of the year. I don't for one minute think my 2 daft labs would physically harm a sheep but I wouldn't bet on them not being tempted to chase sheep if they started to run. My solution ~ I don't go to areas where there are sheep, or I ask the farmer, landowner or other dog walkers if I don't know whether sheep are there. I certainly wouldn't risk my dogs' lives & if I'm not sure, they stay on the lead.
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Adam P
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23-07-2010, 02:14 PM
WB/BM

Reality is things happen.
Dogs get out, slip leads ect. You can't live in a state of constant survaliance (well most people can't) so there needs to be an alternative.
Also many dogs will not desensitise to sheep even given time, sheep are prey dogs are predators just being around sheep can be a huge reinforcer to a predatory dog and will creatE more prey drive. You can't always work below threshold either.

KW.

My aussie guy reference was to providing the same service.
Re your other points, you just work with the dogs body language and reactions and take your cues/use of the collar from that.

Adam
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Snorri the Priest
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23-07-2010, 02:33 PM
Oh, I wonder how our distant ancestors managed to domesticate and train dogs before these hell devices were invented? Did the cavemen have them?

Imagine Barney Rubble going off to work, stone club in one hand, e-collar in the other..................


These things are, methinks, a "solution" looking for a problem.


Snorri
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Wysiwyg
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23-07-2010, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Maureen19 View Post
...I realise none of you out there have a bit of an open mind that not all people who use these collars are dog torturers, I feel sure many do it for the opposite rason for things that can end their dogs lives
....

Wilbar's post was fine, she was expressing her opinion.

I think you may find that those of us against the use of shock collars (I still prefer to call them that) have looked at/studied/had many conversations with/read about/looked at the consultations/taken part in them etc etc and are not just people who have a knee jerk reaction.

Let's get a few things straight. Dogs who are shocked with high levels may well stop chasing sheep. On the other hand, they may stop chasing those sheep, but chase sheep in other parts of the country on holiday because their training has not been generalised and the owners and trainers dont realise this. They may become sheep aggressive. They may not respond to the shock. What if they get out and do not have the collar on? what if the batteries are dead? What if they are chasing due to not having a good life, chasing is all they have, and so they are destined to live with no other target stimulation even though they are hard wired to chase??
It's not all as straightforward as it seems .

Those who work with dogs and stock (Mugford, Ryan, Stockdale etc) do not use shock collars (althogh they may vary in their approach). They have also had to help dogs who have been shocked, but who have not stopped chasing.

I personally am particularly against the use of shock collars for basic training, such as the Sit. They are recommended for this more and more. I am against their use for sport and gundog training, for horses who have stable vices, for cats and puppies and housetraining ... etcetera

JMO and please take it as such. If you prefer those who will agree with you, only, then there are forums who will do so.

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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23-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by Snorri the Priest View Post
Oh, I wonder how our distant ancestors managed to domesticate and train dogs before these hell devices were invented? Did the cavemen have them?

Imagine Barney Rubble going off to work, stone club in one hand, e-collar in the other..................


These things are, methinks, a "solution" looking for a problem.


Snorri
and the shock collar makers stand to losing loads of dosh if their main source of income is banned...

Wys
x
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ClaireandDaisy
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23-07-2010, 04:25 PM
The opinion of the British Veterinary Association:

USE OF ELECTRONIC SHOCK COLLARS IN COMPANION ANIMALS
The BVA supports the British Small Animal Veterinary Association
(BSAVA) position statement (March 2006) on the use of electronic shock collars in
companion animals, namely:
In principle, the BSAVA opposes the use of electronic shock collars for training and containment of animals. Shocks received during training may not only be acutely stressful, painful and frightening for the animal but also may produce long term adverse effects on behavioural and emotional responses.
The Association recognises that all electronic devices that employ shock as a means of punishing or controlling behaviour are open to potential abuse and that incorrect use of such training aids has the potential to cause welfare problems.
Apart from the potentially detrimental effect on the animal receiving the shocks there is also evidence that there is a risk to public safety from the use of shock-collar based
containment systems, as they may evoke aggression in dogs under certain circumstances.

The BSAVA strongly recommends the use of positive reinforcement methods in training dogs wherever possible and supports investigation of positive reinforcement training
methods that could replace those using aversive stimuli.

For further advice please contact BVA
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