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Adam P
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10-07-2010, 06:34 PM
I care about the whole dog. I care about its quality of life and welfare. I don't share the same training beliefs as everyone but I believe i am as good for the dog (if not better) than anyone else. What I'm not neccasarily into is making myself or the owner think how nice we are by doing this that and the other. While all the time the dog still has issues/poorer quality of life.

Lol KW, you reminded me of a client with that statement. He had a little x breed and I was his second trainer for recall, within about two hours the dog was superb (with or without the e collar). At the end of the last session he was shaking my hand and said.
'' thank you so much, you've got him doing it great and only charged £50. The last guy charged £300!''

Walking to the car with the e collar I considered running it over lol.

Anyway I dislike the term quick fix. It suggests it won't last and is just pappering over the issue. The training does last. However it is quicker than many methods and very effective.

Adam
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rune
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10-07-2010, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I care about the whole dog. I care about its quality of life and welfare. I don't share the same training beliefs as everyone but I believe i am as good for the dog (if not better) than anyone else. What I'm not neccasarily into is making myself or the owner think how nice we are by doing this that and the other. While all the time the dog still has issues/poorer quality of life.

Lol KW, you reminded me of a client with that statement. He had a little x breed and I was his second trainer for recall, within about two hours the dog was superb (with or without the e collar). At the end of the last session he was shaking my hand and said.
'' thank you so much, you've got him doing it great and only charged £50. The last guy charged £300!''

Walking to the car with the e collar I considered running it over lol.

Anyway I dislike the term quick fix. It suggests it won't last and is just pappering over the issue. The training does last. However it is quicker than many methods and very effective.

Adam
£300 in Devon!

Must be barkbusters or similar (G)!

rune
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DevilDogz
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10-07-2010, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
However it is quicker than many methods and very effective.
Adam
ahh but for ALL the wrong reasons!
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Tassle
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10-07-2010, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I care about the whole dog. I care about its quality of life and welfare. I don't share the same training beliefs as everyone but I believe i am as good for the dog (if not better) than anyone else. What I'm not neccasarily into is making myself or the owner think how nice we are by doing this that and the other. While all the time the dog still has issues/poorer quality of life.

Lol KW, you reminded me of a client with that statement. He had a little x breed and I was his second trainer for recall, within about two hours the dog was superb (with or without the e collar). At the end of the last session he was shaking my hand and said.
'' thank you so much, you've got him doing it great and only charged £50. The last guy charged £300!''

Walking to the car with the e collar I considered running it over lol.

Anyway I dislike the term quick fix. It suggests it won't last and is just pappering over the issue. The training does last. However it is quicker than many methods and very effective.

Adam
Wow - thats some claim!
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MichaelM
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10-07-2010, 06:37 PM
I have no direct experience of electric collars at all, but am getting to the point where if there was someone here (ie near me) who used one, I might well consider it.

Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
when i worked in rescue, it was amazing how all the people whom phrased it "we've tried everything" couldnt actually specifically explain what 'it' was that they had tried when i asked them.

it wasnt even a case they could describe the 'one' thing they had tried consistently
Originally Posted by DevilDogz View Post
Thats because most dont ever put the time or effort in. Just think a dog knows how to behave with out guidance.
Stupied really isnt it? Its the dogs that suffer because of lazy owners.
I've had Locky for 18 months now. I went to APDT classes for the first 6 months, and attended a recall workshop with him. During that time there were a few incidents whilst he was on lead, which resulted in me speaking to 2 behaviourists. One suggested that I use a halti, keep him on lead, and keep him away from other dogs, the other said we could work through it.

During this time we had him at the vets for a few problems, had his hips, spine and elbows x-rayed, found out he has loose ligaments in his shoulders and arthritis in his hips. He's been on medication and attended weekly hydrotherapy since.

Having called out the behaviourist, we've attended weekly classes for the past 12 months or so (BIPDT) - he's more accepting of large dogs/dogs with problems than some trainers up here (I know of one trainer who has told people not to come back to class - didn't do much for the owners confidence).

Locky is now a lot better behaved than he was, but still has no real recall to speak of other than in a controlled environment/no distractions. He can socialise with other dogs - but he needs to be introduced first, and he needs to be the one to get a snif first.

There's a small group of doggy friends that he gets to meet/ play/socialise with no problems.

So that's what I've done for him. Then.....

This morning I let him run to meet one of his friends, there was a woman behind a bush with Westie who I hadn't seen (otherwise I wouldn't have let him off). Locky saw her/it and off he went. He snapped at the westie then left.

Seems like 12 months of progress has been undone in a few seconds.

I suspect the idealists will claim they would never have put their dog in that situation in the first place, or will question whether or not I'm at the right class/seen the right behaviourist.

I'm fuming.
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rune
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10-07-2010, 06:40 PM
So what help do you think an electric shock would have been when the Westie ran out?

rune
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ClaireandDaisy
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10-07-2010, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

Locky is now a lot better behaved than he was, but still has no real recall to speak of other than in a controlled environment/no distractions. He can socialise with other dogs - but he needs to be introduced first, and he needs to be the one to get a snif first.

There's a small group of doggy friends that he gets to meet/ play/socialise with no problems.

So that's what I've done for him. Then.....

This morning I let him run to meet one of his friends, there was a woman behind a bush with Westie who I hadn't seen (otherwise I wouldn't have let him off). Locky saw her/it and off he went. He snapped at the westie then left.

Seems like 12 months of progress has been undone in a few seconds.
No, it hasn`t, but I understand your frustration. Your dog reacted. TBH many dogs would have reacted at a dog appearing from nowhere. Your dog made it clear he did not want to be approached and retreated.
What`s he done wrong? If you know his recall is iffy, excercise him on a line. If you know he might fight another dog, use a muzzle.
Cruel treatment won`t make him like other dogs. So a shock collar really wouldn`t help.
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Tupacs2legs
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10-07-2010, 07:54 PM
he told the westie off than left it?.... and?

if your worried one word ... 'muzzle'.... painless
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Krusewalker
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10-07-2010, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

Seems like 12 months of progress has been undone in a few seconds.
that anothert statement one hears often

it presupposes that dog training is a straight line and dogs 'cannot' and should not err sideways or backwards at any given stage of a 'programme', or that they can, but that means progress has been setback and all previous work has been "wasted".

which clearly contains no logic, nor truth.

think about it: really study the statement, break it down:
"a few seconds has undone 1 years work"

I mean, really??

This denies the sentience of canine.
The life force they inhabit, which generates alternating energy levels and mind sets....we wouldnt make that logical outcome in a similar situation for humans?

I wrote earlier why i am progressively becoming post Operant Conditioning, and its due to training theory statements like this.

All of us good and capable dog trainers have been sold the OC pressure that you have to always control the environment to achieve progress.
It has quietly conditioned us to follow the theory of OC theories such as systemmatic desensitisation.

When their really can be no such thing.
Their can be unsytemmatic desensitisation.
Which is just as it shoud be.

As we arent standing in a field training pigeons and rats in mazes, whilst weating white coats and growing Tefal Heads.

If you go post OC, it takes the pressure off; for example, we dont feel the need to go on forums to vent about people in the park distracting our 'programme', etc, etc, etc, etc.

As that IS training.
As it is all opportunity for instinctual understanding and informed adaptation, which is wherein progress truly exists.

Dog training IS not a straight line ahead, it is many bends and kinks in several multi directional roads.
(After all, doesnt one idea from OC say walks backwards or change direction if your dog pulls)

Dog training IS is a few seconds 'out of programme' incident.

The anxiety regarding 'progress' in such a situtaion isnt canine, its human.

So take off the OC/SD monchrome shades, embrace the colour, and carry on tomorrow.

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Adam P
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10-07-2010, 08:15 PM
Rune
It was BB.

The recall (trained with e collar) would have allowed Michael to call his dog off as soon as he saw the westie. It could also be used to help desensitise the dog to other dogs.

Michaelm
Recall training with an e collar is fairly simple tbh. You'd obviously have to get your own e collar but pm if you want any advice.

Adam
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