Totally and utterly agree with this. A dog is a dog is a dog. It may well be very much loved and a member of the family ... but it is still a dog. Dogs want to be treated like dogs, not like furry humans.

I also hate anthromorphisation - but I see it a little different

For us to try and behaive as the Alpha (I mean the way Pidge described - trying to be top dog) is thinking dogs are daft enough to see us as dogs

To deal with every problem as the dog is Dom and trying to take over the world is anthramorphisiation, our pushing our beleif struction on the behaviour of the dog - and again wrong


Interested what everyone would do with a dog that bites??
One time when Mias blood was high, a GSD was facing her down and barking at her, so of course she went into a fit, I stupidly touched her back and of course she perceived it as a possible threat, she whiped round and bit my hand - as she was doing it she saw who I was an inhibited her bite and didnt even break the skin

I dont see how in that situation I should have told her off - it was my fault and she did good to stop herself hurting me

No way does she deserve to be PTS for biting, she deserves to be taught ways to cope with big strange dogs better

and of course she cannot be let alone with children, but for the record she is v loving with children

True we live in a socity that will sue for the least wee thing, but at the same time we should take some responsibility, we invited hunters and killers to our fireside, we should respect the fact that they are v kind and forgiving to us, but we shouldnt push them too far so they feel thet have to bite
As a child a dog gave me a warning nip because I had bugged it to play too much, I was told off NOT the dog because she had done nothing wrong

I actually prefer the word "alpha" Krusewalker, one, it is more economical (one word instead of many) and two, I believe that we, as humans, live in a pack society very similar to a wolf pack. This is why I believe that we have such an amazingly symbiotic relationship with our dogs - we live by the same rules. Ipso facto, humans must be "alphas" to their dogs.

"I find it rather anthropomorphic to think that a dog could feel undermined by the term we choose to use to describe them or ourselves.. they are blissfully unaware."

My sense of humour again Lottie ! I was joking. Poking fun at myself !

I personally would never allow a dog of mine to bark at children - depending on their age of course. All socialised species, such as our own and dogs, have a natural inhibition to harm the young of another similar species. I would be appalled if Tai reacted in any negative way whatsoever to young children being rough with him. I would tell the children to be gentle, and ask the parents to stop their children from being so rough, but if he so much as growled at a young child, he would be reprimanded. By young child, I mean pre-puberty age.

I keep saying this, but you just cannot be too careful in today's anti dog society. If you allow your dogs to bark or growl at young children, you could find your dogs with the equivalent of an ASBO on their heads !

Great post! I agree with all of this.


Gnasher... the problem is a dog cannot say 'please don't come near me as I'm quite frightened of children' and kids have proven to take no notice of me in the past.

It would appear that you are very lucky to have a dog who is sociable in that respect. Have you ever had any experience with a dog who is genuinely frightened of a certain stimulus?

I would NEVER reprimand Takara for barking at a group of a dozen children running at her. It would frighten me and so can only imagine how much it frightens her.

To reprimand a dog for reacting towards something they are frightened of is only going to cause more problems when they realise that when that frightening thing comes towards them not only do they risk injury from that thing (in their mind) but also punishment from the person who is supposed to be looking after them.

Don't get me wrong, I have tried reprimanding her in the past (when I knew no better) for reacting towards a dog she felt threatened by. All it did was work her up even more and instead of directing her response at me, she directed it at the dog she was already reacting at and the problem just escalated.

I feel it is too much to ask of our dogs to behave like robots and not react when frightened by something. I don't feel that's fair on the dog at all - they have their own emotions and their own way of communicating.

If you have a dog who is comfortable with things that's great but when you have a dog that isn't so good at accepting things, has a lower tolerance level or high anxieties you can't work against them - you have to work with them.

For the record I don't 'allow' it... I don't reprimand it, I take it on board and work on it so that the dog doesn't feel it necessary to repeat the behaviour. This does take time but please don't think that I just shrug my shoulders, say 'she's a dog' and do nothing about it. I always take heed of things and work on building her tolerance.
Reprimanding a dog for displaying it's natural communication can turn the dog into a ticking time bomb knowing that it still feels uncomfortable but can't communicate it.
I would rather my dog didn't feel like that but knew she could tell me if she did!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it you have never actually been put into this situation with Tai as you keep saying 'if he ever did'. You are lucky that you have not had to deal with it but as someone who has I can tell you it's not always as straight cut as you may think!

Ben : I absolutely agree with you about Mia and the inhibited bite. As you say, it was foolish to do what you did, but you did it out of concern for your dog. The inhibition showed by Mia is exemplary and you are absolutely correct in not punishing her. You touched her when she was in "the red zone" as it were, at that moment she was not your beloved Mia, she was a wild wolf protecting you from what she perceived to be a very dangerous situation for you, and possibly her too. Dogs are allowed to defend themselves as well as their human pack.

I don't agree though that the alpha principle is anthropomorphisation. The wolf pack is run in a similar way to human society ... head of the family is mummy and daddy. As we all know, in human society it is mummy that truly runs the "pack" and it is just the same in a wolf pack. Mummy wolf dictates when and where they hunt, when to move on, Daddy wolf lazes around most of the time, just as in our society only stirring his stumps to ward off any encroachment from a would-be alpha or to mate. To aim to be alpha to our dogs is anything but anthropomorphisation ... it is exactly the opposite, because it is acknowledging how to do best to your dog, to speak to him in his own language, for want of a better word.

I had half my face savaged by a boxer bitch when I was about 3. Totally my mother's fault, Suzi had a bone, and my mother told me not to touch Suzi whilst she had her bone, and then left me alone with Suzi in the garden whilst she went indoors to have her hair done. The inevitable happened of course, and this is one of my earliest memories ... me sitting on Mrs Groves' kichen table swinging my legs, screaming my head off with blood pouring down my face, Mrs Groves having hysterics, and my mother telling me off for not doing what I had been told !! I ask you, what dog mad 3 year old would take any notice, stupid woman !! Anyway, despite the fact that Suzi had provocation (I remember the bone had rolled away from her, and I went to pick it up and give it back to her, she must have thought I was taking it away), there is absolutely no way in a million years that a well balanced dog should have savaged a toddler's face like that, it was completely uncalled for. Had this been my dog, and someone's else's toddler, I would have been absolutely devastated and sought expert advice. No dog should EVER bite such a young child, whatever the reason, except possibly fighting for its life.

No dog I have ever had has ever ever ever growled at a child. The worst any dog ever did was Hal just before he died. It was a very hot summer's day, and a 14 year old teenager was stroking his tummy outside the pub when she leaned very hard on his stomach. He was suffering from kidney stones at the time, and this probably hurt him, and he just growled, nothing more, just a warning growl. I was angry with him and told him off, and he instantly put out his tongue, a sign of supplication, and the young girl apologised for hurting him and started to stroke his ears. He licked her hand, and all was well.

I've rambled on again as usual, sorry !!

Lottie : I feel that if you reprimand (gently of course) Takara when she barks at roughly behaving children, you are doing exactly the right thing ! You are telling her, look you silly sausage, there is nothing to be scared of ! they are only stupid children who know no better, here, look at me, I'm not scared, so you shouldn't be. See? By pandering to her fear, you are reinforcing it. By not telling her off, you are saying there, there, Takara, those nasty noisy children, of course you are scared, so am I, you go ahead and bark at them as much as you want ! She is then going to learn that it is OK to bark at children, or whatever is frightening her. Much better is to teach her, by your own positive body language and calm assertiveness, that there is nothing to be frightened of.

Yes, my boy Hal was scared of fireworks. So what did I do? I made him face up to fireworks ... not outside, I felt that would be too cruel. I took him into the conservatory and sat with him in there watching the fireworks through the glass. Every time a firework went off, I gave a shout of delight ! O look Hal look, aren't they pretty ! Doing everything I could through my positive body language to show him that fireworks were fun. When a particularly loud one went off, I would excite him by saying Hal, Hal, fetch the firework, in the same voice I would use to chase next door's cat out of my garden. He got the picture. I then took him outside and we sat on the patio with all the bangs and whistles. This was a bit more scarey for him, but by the end of the firework display, he was lying down by my side calmly.

Hope this helps.

Lottie you said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I take it you have never actually been put into this situation with Tai as you keep saying 'if he ever did'. You are lucky that you have not had to deal with it but as someone who has I can tell you it's not always as straight cut as you may think!

Yup, you are right, Tai isn't scared of anything, he came to us as a rescue with no issues, just a lot of bad manners, which I sorted out within days. However, you have got me thinking, because there is one thing he does have, and that is huge separation anxiety. Now, this is something where I don't believe "going through the paces" will help. Through no fault of his previous owner's really, Tai had to be left Home Along for many many hours sometimes, his owner worked in the pub trade. I do not believe we are ever going to get him over this, and I will be quite honest with you, I don't want to try. We find it no problem that he has to come everywhere with us, the sacrifice of never being able to go into a restaurant for dinner, or the cinema, or abroad, is a sacrifice worth making. We left him alone for 2 hours whilst we went to a parish council meeting, and he ripped through a mahogany front door in his attempts to get to us. This deep rooted phobia is perfectly natural, just as it was my previous dog Hal, who was the same type - mal x husky - they have a very strong pack instinct and just cannot be left alone, unless you have more than one, and even that can be tricky. I am not sure we would ever be able to undo the pain and suffering of the last 6 years, so I am not going to even try. As far as we are concerned, it is not a problem, just part of loving Tai ! And Hal before him.

Having told you that, you might call me a hypocrite !!

I have to say yes.

You should be the 'alpha'.

I'm a bit behind on this but I will just make a comment about this as it's interesting.

From a behavioural/behaviourist's point of view, they are different. In the snap, a dog consciously decides to not make contact.

In the bite, the dog does decide to make contact, and then we are talking usually about damage/bite inhibition etc

It's very unusual for a dog to not have excellent control over its mouth to the extent that it goes to snap and instead may bite, IMHO unless an owner gets in the way accidentally (for example by trying to break up a dog fight).

Therefore the intention of a dog when snapping is only to snap, NOT to bite


I don't think anyone is saying it's OK for dogs to go around snapping willy nilly at folk , because it's clearly not: I think they are saying only that dogs may snap at times, but that is not biting

Wys
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