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MerlinsMum
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30-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sorry, thread goes so fast I tend to scan it.
Not that fast really, but if you're trying to keep up with so many other threads in so many other forums I guess you're quite busy. Funny how you can always find the time to post about how great e-collars are though.... takes a bit of time to answer questions I've noticed, especially when you've been asked to substantiate something you've written.
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Snorri the Priest
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31-07-2010, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
, this usually means pulls/doesn't come back and is a general pain. Training can take care of this.

Adam

Does this apply to e-collar trainers as well, or do you have to get tougher?



Snorri
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ClaireandDaisy
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31-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Snorri the Priest View Post
Does this apply to e-collar trainers as well, or do you have to get tougher?



Snorri
Yes, I think in those cases you have to breadcrumb (no battering allowed, you see) and deep fry.
And then serve with a large pinch of salt.
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Krusewalker
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31-07-2010, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
OK

I do find AP more frightening than the unbalanced pair on DC---however the more he is challenged the more he spews out the same stuff that they do and I suppose in that way it is a useful excercise.

rune
the psychology of cruelty is an odd one.

i can see that AP would appear a lot more alarming for anti e collar campaigners than the chaps on DP, like you say.

its a tough one.

as when you perceive someone to perform an act of cruelty, your human nature automatically assumes they must be an unbalanced or a obnoxious individual in general.

when i lived in new zealand, the farmers had anything up to 10-12 herding collies.
when they werent working, they resided inside, what can be best described as coffin shaped housings in a row in a field.

the sad thing is that only half the collies worked each day, which meant the other half lived 24 hours a time plus in these boxes.

now, to my mind, that was clearly cruel.

yet i lived and worked on these farms, and these people were my friends, and kinder more generous peoples you couldnt hope to meet.

so they may have been doing something cruel, but they werent 'cruel people', as it were.

but for them, they are just following what they regard as a cultural norm.

so it does seem, from AP's measured polite tone, that he could be a pleasant enough chap.
one whom you could probably like if you didnt know about his e collar practice.

now i can see that contradiction as quite a challenge in the minds and souls of those unhappy of his continual unwavering support for using electric shocks on dogs (as i am).

at least with the DC pair we can say they behave just as you'd expect for someone whom would inflict cruelty.

so i beleive some of the anger and frustration directed toward AP is because he isnt, according to the natural human instinct for perceiving cruelty, acting 'true to type'.
which is confusing, and means we dont have the consolation of rationalisng his actions by saying something like "well, you'd expect someone whom has such an obnoxious/mentally unstable (add adjective of your choice) personality to zap dogs with electric shocks.

that, i think rune, is why you see him as much more dangeorus the pair on DC, as he seems to possess a 'credibility' that they dont.

which is why its important that his opponents retain the same credibility, the animals depend upon it

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Lotsadogs
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31-07-2010, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
the psychology of cruelty is an odd one.

i can see that AP would appear a lot more alarming for anti e collar campaigners than the chaps on DP, like you say.

its a tough one.

as when you perceive someone to perform an act of cruelty, your human nature automatically assumes they must be an unbalanced or a obnoxious individual in general.

when i lived in new zealand, the farmers had anything up to 10-12 herding collies.
when they werent working, they resided inside, what can be best described as coffin shaped housings in a row in a field.

the sad thing is that only half the collies worked each day, which meant the other half lived 24 hours a time plus in these boxes.

now, to my mind, that was clearly cruel.

yet i lived and worked on these farms, and these people were my friends, and kinder more generous peoples you couldnt hope to meet.

so they may have been doing something cruel, but they werent 'cruel people', as it were.

but for them, they are just following what they regard as a cultural norm.

so it does seem, from AP's measured polite tone, that he could be a pleasant enough chap.
one whom you could probably like if you didnt know about his e collar practice.

now i can see that contradiction as quite a challenge in the minds and souls of those unhappy of his continual unwavering support for using electric shocks on dogs (as i am).

at least with the DC pair we can say they behave just as you'd expect for someone whom would inflict cruelty.

so i beleive some of the anger and frustration directed toward AP is because he isnt, according to the natural human instinct for perceiving cruelty, acting 'true to type'.
which is confusing, and means we dont have the consolation of rationalisng his actions by saying something like "well, you'd expect someone whom has such an obnoxious/mentally unstable (add adjective of your choice) personality to zap dogs with electric shocks.

that, i think rune, is why you see him as much more dangeorus the pair on DC, as he seems to possess a 'credibility' that they dont.

which is why its important that his opponents retain the same credibility, the animals depend upon it

What an excellent post KW!

I agree in a massive way with all of what you have written. Well done.

I understand that there are those that are apparently decent people, who fail to see some of their acts as un-decent. I do not know why this should be so.

I know folk who actually "joke" that some of their practices are well, not the best, and they even appear to flinch at their own descriptions of their own actions, and yet they persist in them.

Personally, I believe it is a very brave and strong person who steps out of their,.... errrr (?) norm, acceptance, of "usual", errr... Im struggling to find the correct appropriate terminology. ???

A brave person to step away from what they have always believed, seen, adhered to or followed and stand up, to themselves, let alone all they those they have "proffessed" to, and say, actually, I think I was wrong.

It is an insightfull and enquiring soul who asks the question, "is it right - what I am doing?". A braver souls still to admit that actually no, it isn't.

I think some folks must simply lack the courage to do either. I know that I have lacked that courage, at times in the past and probably will again. But I hope that Grace grants me the insight to see the error in my ways in a short space of time, and smack me hard enough to sufficiently make me get a grip.

I once heard someone say "that those that know most, are those that realise that their understanding is very limited and they look elsewhere for more answers, more insight Those that know least are those that believe they know it all.

Believing one knows it all is a sad place to be, but an easy trap to fall into. Knowing one knows only a small ammount of what there is to know, is a tough place, between a rock and a hard place. A brave place. A lonely place. Where ones courage is tested, to the full.
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rune
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31-07-2010, 08:31 PM
I would agree if it wasn't for the massive ego and the ignorance shown so often in his postings.

I did in fact in an earlier post say much the same as you have ---that was then.

rune
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Lotsadogs
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31-07-2010, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I would agree if it wasn't for the massive ego and the ignorance shown so often in his postings.

I did in fact in an earlier post say much the same as you have ---that was then.

rune
The drive of the EGO is one of self defence. With experience (and years and age and real life experience), the need to protect oneself lessons, in my experience.

Adam is but a baby, in terms of dog experience, no matter how he might portray his levels of encounters. In time, he will either realise his limitations, or be blown away by them.

I hope.
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Adam P
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31-07-2010, 08:43 PM
I obviously don't believe what I do is cruel.
I would like to point out that in the past I wasn't pro e collars and while I was educated in dogs by some people who used more direct aversives than many on here (by choice) I went through a stage of being very pro reward based methods.

However my primary concern is the welfare of the dogs and after researching and experiencing a variety of methods I decied e collars were ok and have since delved quite deeply into their use.

I have to say my dog journey (while shorter than many on here) has involved looking/practicing alot of different approaches to develop what I consider to be the best way for the dogs I own and train. However I'M still learning, if I found a preferable method to my current practises I would adopt it immediatly. Its just that so far I haven't. I don't believe I know it all, its just that so far I can't find a better way.

I realise many/all of you find e collars distateful and probably consider some of my practises abusive. However I wonder how much is down to our perceptiom of it. Lets face it ELECTRIC, STIM, NEGATIVE REINFORCMENT, all sounds extremely unpleasent when applied to the concept of animal training and interaction.
However I doubt the animal percieves it as such. Ultimatly they don't care about our perceptions just what happens to them, I believe e colalr/negative training used properly is no more stressful to the animals than any other training method. Learnign will always involve some stress and if the motivation is too great the stress will increase.

With regards to cruelty, and my perception of it. Well I don't really know. I might consider someone else's practise cruel, wereas they would consider my whole ethos cruel. Once again it comes down to the indivadual. I think the only one who can decied if something is cruel or not is the one experiencing it. So far I see no evidence from those who matter (dogs) to suggest I'm cruel. Others may see it differently.

Adam
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Lotsadogs
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31-07-2010, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
So far I see no evidence from those who matter (dogs) to suggest I'm cruel.

Adam
And THAT i believe, is the main problem. You just don't see!

Perhaps because you aren't looking?

But what is your purpose on these forums? As far as I can see, apart from the few errr... "unuusual" folk on DC, you have no other supporters, no one else agree's.

If you believe you are so right, that you have found the best way,then why not go and be so very right somerwhere else??? If as you say all your customers are entirely happy and by the sounds of it you have HUGE numbers of them - yeah right - then why waste time on a forum that has no belief in you, or your ideas? And was mangeing to get along perfectly well before your appearance?

I am genuinely curious ???
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Adam P
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31-07-2010, 09:06 PM
Hi Dm (sorry just easier lol)

My purpose is simple, if someone is reading this and feeling they need to use e collars ect I want them to feel its not a horrible thing and there is support out there for them.

With regards to my looking/not looking.
I believe I can read a dogs body language and behaviour fairly well, if not I'd get bitten alot more lol.
When using any (including reward) training I'm constantly checking the dogs emotional state, both to be nice to the dog and to facilate good training.
When e collar training I don't see any different body language than when using another method (including reward training).
Have you witnessed e collar training and seen body language you disagree with from the dog? For anyone btw.

Adam
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