As i put before, no im no dog behavourist/trainer, but few of us are?, nor do i have any wish to be.
All I have done is found a behavourist/trainer who i beleive in and has taught me amny things. I fully consulted with him the difficulties my sisiter was having and what she had tried, so we tried his method and it worked.
I did not do this because I saw it on TV!

My sisiter consulted several behavourists, with many different theories and suggestions.
Ignoring was done with the jumping up in that if he did she would turn away from him nad as he sat back down, she rewarded him. She persisterd with this for a good four weeks, but with very little success, meanwhile the behaviour was escalating.
We had no details of his background, he was a stray rescued from a pound in Ireland, due to be put to sleep.
He had obviously never received any love and of course this was the foundation of all my sisters work with him.

What can i say, i dont agree. I have read studdies, by both people who do and dont agree. I dont go into things half heartidly, i do my research and as i have put on several occasions, im always open to new ideas and methods, a lot of which i have tried, but they were not for me or my dogs.

I watch my collie do the Alpha roll on a regular basis, to any dog on the park that shows a bit of aggression or dominance - legs in the air on his back, hes such a happy chap who wants to be friends with everyone and it has the desired effect, the other dog calms down and before long they are having a good sniff of each other.

The obvious difference is, your collie is a dog reacting to another dog..

That is not an alpha roll.......

Have you thought that maybe 4 weeks just wasn't long enough for this particular dog, using only the method of ignoring his jumping up?
You say your sister tried other methods to stop the dog from jumping. What other methods were used? How long did she use them for? And did she combine any 2 or more methods to get a better result, before alpha rolling and pinning him to the floor etc - which would probably have made him more anxious?

Alpha rolling, pinning, stringing up etc are not necessary for any dog IMHO but to use any of these methods on an already anxious dog without a full history just beggars belief. I think your sister was very lucky NOT to have already been injured.

Does she still have the dog? Is he still not responding to her methods? If so, feel free to hand him over. He'd have the time of his life with my dogs and would learn with the right amount of discipline, kindness and only positive methods.

Yes I agree that sometimes positive methods can take longer to get good results, particularyl if there's a headstrong dog involved in the training. But positive methods almost always work. Where a positive method doesn't work, no harm is done, either to the handler or the dog.

Laura xx

Again cheers for that. I think clearly stating that on here is good, as a wriiten message can be interpreted in many different ways.

I dont know what else to say about the amount of force i used, i can only explain what i did and there was very little required - thats what i liked about it. I was specifically told that if the dog was distressed to stop, but we didnt get that!

I find clicker training is getting my dog to peform a command. Of course they do follow commands such as sit, stay, come and walk to heel, but i only use them for safety of my dogs when out etc. I want a method that allows my dog to be a dog.
On that i would also like to say, that i totally respect others choice and see that it works wonderfully for many, which is great. There is not one way thats the right way and as long as everyone/animal is happy i dont see the problem- my dogs and my sisiters are thriving now!

i have used clicker, positive reinforcement training- food reward mostly and as a child with family dogs negative reinforcement which of course was the "thing to do" then.
I was paticually excited about positive reinforcement training , because i thought initially it was very similar to solution focussed theinking which i used in my proffession, but actually found it to be rather mad, very food orientated and left me with one very very hyperactive pup!

Of course i agree any dog has the potential to be painful with its bite, but i think the point is that they do soft mouth in a lot of situations with each other and that was what i was doing.

I have not watched an episode of CM with sound turned off and i shall do and will watch the dog.
Probably wont get to read the book before hand though as its just to tempting to try this and il feed back my thoughts and time with four dogs and a baby allows ltd time for reading, but i will get there looking forward to it.

I agree dogs are pretty easy to figure out on the whole and i know about learned helplessness and breaking spirits, but this is not what i was doing at all.

The book is a really easy read. It isn't too long, but it is totally fascinating.
I really do suggest you read it, so you are 'up' on calming signals before you watch an episode with the sound off...it is enlightening in many ways. I actually think you would really like it too. Turid Rugaas is one trainer who is very into having dogs behaving naturally...but she is VERY far removed from CM. I actually do think you will like her.....(although she does NOT alpha roll....)

Im finding your posts paticually aggresive, maybe im reading them wrong, but you have left me feeling like this before on another thread and thats why i didnt come on for quite a while. I just wonder if we could both just respect that we do not agree in general and not attack.
Thank you

I admire CM for his passion in dogs, he worked for a long time without a TV camera and as far as im aware i dont think he sought out fame. But if you were reffering to me in this comment i do not generally take advise from TV and general media, as i find it hyped and edited etc. So much so. I no longer read the paper and last year, we had a whole year without the tV and i must say it was wonderful and will be doing it again.

In my opinion i do understand my dogs body language and behaviours, but im no expert nad that is why i have on many occasions sought expert advice from many different avenues and also just spent time with my dogs and speaking to different owners etc. I learn everday from my pack and from people i meet.

I think i have clarified on several occasions what i actually did with the Alpha roll, there was very little force required of course i touched the dog. Please re read what i posted before for clarifacation.

If you new me and my dogs and the time i am required to spend and work with them, you would understand that i expect nothing quickly. I work with ex breeding dogs on the whole and adopted two, They dont work fast and it would be detrimental to try.
I tried clicker tarining and i didnt enjoy what i felt it was about and for me it was not right, that is my choice.
My whole life is about trying to slow down and enjoy, so your presumptions on me, im my opinion are quite wrong and disrespectful.

Of course i would not be your best buddy if you hit me!.

I have never kicked, poked, jabbed, rolling, shocked or strung up any dog full stop!.

I have never seen the episode with shadow, but did try with your links, so therefor there was no comment i could make to your post, i was not ignoring it.

Ok, im off to the libary with my sonn after playgroup, so will try to get hold of a copy
will let you no, thanks