ADAM PALMER
NR shows the animal very very clearly what you want, you release the pressure the instant the animal does the right thing. The pressure when not doing the right thing means that when experiencing no pressure the animal is in a constant state of getting it right. With a clicker unless your clicking the animal is not actively getting it right. jmho
WILBAR
I'm sorry but you still haven't answered my question. How on earth does the dog know that it is doing the RIGHT thing? It could be doing several small things when the shock stops (please don't call it "releasing the pressure ~ it makes it sound like a gentle tug on a lead when it's not, it's an electric shock so please don't dress it up as anything else). The fact remains that the dog is getting a continual shock until you determine that it does one very small thing like momentarily glance away from sheep. What if, at the same time, it slightly moved it's left foot, flicked an ear, took a deep breathe? The dog could equally associate any of those things with the cessation of the shock. As for saying that the dog is in "a constant state of getting it right" ~ this just goes against the whole principle of operant conditioning. The dog is not being shown the "right" behaviour ~ it is more than likely in a constant state of fear & apprehension that another electric shock will be applied & not know what behaviour may set it off.

Good points Wilbar, ones I have asked myself, yet Adam is unable to understand

Adam, why on earth do you keep going on.
Youve put your point across & justified their use & your own Morals on Training.

Now you are never going to convince the "antis" that you are anything but a slightly sadistic, "quick fix " trainer, & by oing on & on & on its just making it worse, & very very dull.

Why not move on to a a few more dogsey topics, to show your own Knowledge & compassion for dogs in everyday circumstances & try to help afew members with their problems?

The whole Ecollar thing is on dogsey now, so if anyone is interested in using one, im sure they will be quick to contact you by PM for your advice .

Good points mishflynn but to be fair, we have all berated & challenged Adam for responses to our questions, asked him about the studies he says he's considered, challenged his knowledge of learning theory etc etc. Adam has responded to some points (not satisfactorily imo) but if we want this discussion stopped then we all need to agree to disagree on the use of ecollars, not just expect Adam to back away.

Adam ~ as one final point, could you please say when you completed your degree in animal behaviour? Was it recent? How long have you been practising as a canine behaviourist/trainer? Do you advertise? Do you work on vet referral? I am only asking because I was wondering about your credentials & qualifications, not because I don't believe you. I am very worried that someone claiming to be knowledgeable & successful in this field is going against the wealth of experience, knowledge & scientific research that backs up the views expressed by the APBC, APDT, British, European & American Veterinary professional bodies, and animal welfare charities like the Dogs Trust & RSPCA. All of these very respected professional organisations have condemned the use of ecollars, yet you seem to be the lone voice in the wilderness! I wondered if perhaps your college studies were supported by grants from the ecollar manufacturers?

surely its just boring though, no agrement wil be found. hes just making himself look stupid & i expect he thinks we are just idiots for not understanding! why -BOTH sides- continue with a arguement noone is ever going to win.

btw the fact that adam may or may not haveany Qs or be assoicated with asocoiations matters not a jot to me , talent & empathy can not be measured by Qualifications.

great post. sometimes Qualifications mean diddly squat, its what a person can do with a dog that counts

but to gain any credit in my book, you have to be able to do it without e-collars

Some people can use violence and inflict pain on defenceless creatures - some can`t. Using a device to hurt is no less reprehensible than walloping the animal with a club. It`s just more convenient. So all the statistics and reasoned arguements in the world would not make most of us betray our dogs by using pain and fear to make them do what we want.

Got it in one Claire. The odd person who decides they can't train without using an e collar can argue their merits till the cows come home, I would never use one whatever the circumstances and I will always recommend that if someone need the services of a trainer they find a person who doesn't use them like members of the APDT.

Sorry Adam nothing personal some of us have different priorities and values I guess.

I haven't found this debate boring and I am aware that the only agreement that will be made is that Adam and I beg to differ.

Adam's defence and faith in e-collar training seems absolute and in my discussions with him, the solution to hardwired breed specific behaviours. Only time and experience will prove this is not an effective training method.

If e-collar training was an ethical humane way to train northern breeds then every sibe and mal owner I know (hundreds) would use them to allow their dogs to free run around livestock. In reality none would put their dogs in this position in the first place no matter how much their lifestyle had changed.

What's best for the owner to make their life easier is not necessarily what is right for the dog. I would have had a very different conversation with these folks.

Adam and I will never agree with use of the e-collar but I'm sure we will on many other things around Dogsey

Take care.

Seoniad.

A very sensible & well-balanced post. I don't have a lot of experience with northern breeds & I totally respect your views, especially the fact that what makes life easier for the owner is not necessarily what is best for the dog. I think this could apply to much of what we do to dogs.

Thanks very much Wilbar. Your thoughts mean alot.

Take care of yourself.

Seoniad.