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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Ramble
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17-04-2009, 08:15 AM
Wys...superb post, as usual. x
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Meg
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17-04-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
No, it's "The Fast Track Dog Survival Kit - coping with adolescence and beyond" by Lyn Fleet & Helen Roberts. It's really good.
Glad you have found that Pidge I keep suggesting new puppy owners get a copy of their 'Puppy Survival guide', I think they are very good trainers and the advice given by them is in an easy to understand form for new dog owners.
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Wysiwyg
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17-04-2009, 08:39 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Wys...superb post, as usual. x
Fanks Ramble

Wys
x
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ClaireandDaisy
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17-04-2009, 08:54 AM
I`m just reading the Dog Aggression Workbook by James O`Heare. He says at the start of the book... (I`ve paraphrased)..
I suggest you forget Dominance theory. It suggests the relationship is adversarial, with both parties in competition. This will distract you from the vastly more straightforward approach of identifying the problem behaviour and the events or things controlling it.
This to me makes practical sense. If there`s a problem, find a way to solve it. Not take it as a personal challenge from the dog.
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Meg
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17-04-2009, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Mini thanks for that, I've actually got this study, but have only managed to skim read it. Lorenz is an interesting character - we owe a lot to him regarding an understanding of ethology but yes, we are not often told about his links to the Nazis! I've got his book "Man meets Dog" but have yet to read it all, not enough time in the day.

It's interesting too that, as humans, we tend to look for linear hierarchies - it's in our nature to do so!! Says a lot In Donaldson's dvd with Ian Dunbar on dominance, she illustrates how much we as humans revere hierarchies eg the army, the church, etc.

The problem with dominance/alpha etc I see as many fold (is there such a word? well, there is now ). One problem is that is has become a "meme" practically every dog owner has heard of:

(A meme (pronounced /miːm/ - rhyming with "dream"), a postulated unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, gets transmitted from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena) (Wiki)

It's become so much a part of dog training culture, and the meaning of just exactly what it is has become very confused along the way.

If we use the terms alpha, dominance, etc ethologically (which is really the only way they can be used) then they simply don't make sense, which is one reason I never, now, use the terms, although I used to.

We then had popular dog people such as John Fisher who wrote a book about pack leadership and being alpha and who I think was very influential; what is not so well known is that he, dear man, actually did a U turn about the concept before he sadly died, this is documented in his diary of a dotty dog doctor.

I have lots of respect for JF and think he was amazing to not only write a whole book about this but then to do his U turn and talk about it again

There are also tv personalities worldwide, who talk so much about dominance (and in such an uneducated way) it scares me to think others are actually listening to them. These people are not looking to scientific facts or ethology or domestication, but instead to previous dog training styles and to the "meme".

Another problem is that experts such as some vets (not all by any means) still refer to dominance. One of the main bugbears of the behaviourist at college is that the local vets refer dogs to her calling them "dominant" when, as she says, this is so far from the real situation.

There is a study coming out by Blackwell and Casey regarding dominance in the domestic dog which will be very interesting, the only problem is that such studies are often only published in scientific journals that most peeps don't have access to (and if they did, they would be boggled by some of the language and scientific stuff .. it needs to be explained in plain English).

Anyway I will stop! but just to say that I really liked the excerpt Pidge gave from the book as it says such a lot

Wys
x
Hi Wys all very interesting . I know about the Fishers turn around, it's so sad he died when he did, I think had he lived he would have gone on to join the 'new behaviourists' and would have helped to influence the thinking on the dominance theory. I have got a book of JFs somewhere, I will have to dig it out and re read it , wish there were more hours in a day .


The Blackwell and Casey sounds interesting, I will keep an eye out for that. Even if not availibale to the general public it will probably be referenced by many in years to come .

For anyone interested in Canine Behaviour , this paper is worth a read..
The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog;
A Longitudinal Study of Domestic Canine Behavior and the Ontogeny of Canine Social Systems by Alexandra Semyonova

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/embed-SocOrg.html
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esmed
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17-04-2009, 09:52 AM
I've voted other as I think it's best to have a balance between the two.

I think it's important that a dog has manners and knows how to behave but I think the alpha male thing can be taken too far and therefore become bullying to the dog.

I think as long as you and the dog have respect for each other and the dog understands that it should do what you ask of it then you should strike a balance between the two.

Probably haven't explained myself very well there!
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Lottie
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17-04-2009, 10:08 AM
Nope!

My dogs and I are friends... and we work together.

If Eddy snaps, it's generally because he's forgotten who we are, if Takara snaps it's because she's uncomfortable with something we're doing and I always listen, take heed and we work it out together.

If I can snap at my dogs (which I admittedly do if I'm in a bad mood or in pain and they play up) then they have every right to snap at me when they're having a ****ty day too!

Only once has Takara ever snapped at me for no good reason (she rarely snaps at all) and yes she did get a telling off and it was made very clear that we don't do that and she's never done it since.

But I think 'Alpha male' has too many connotations... I am not my dog's pack leader, I am their guide and their educator and I protect them and yes, I guess I am the authority figure in their life but I do not like to be referred to as a dog!
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Gnasher
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17-04-2009, 10:34 AM
Lottie : I don't know how to say this nicely, but you cannot have your dogs snapping at you !! That is so bang out of order. You are no way the authority figure in their lives I'm afraid. If you were they would not be snapping at you !
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Mahooli
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17-04-2009, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Lottie : I don't know how to say this nicely, but you cannot have your dogs snapping at you !! That is so bang out of order. You are no way the authority figure in their lives I'm afraid. If you were they would not be snapping at you !
What a complete load of rubbish. Dogs aren't robots they are living beings and may well be in pain or having a bad day and you are saying that they aren't allowed to show us that emotion. They can't verbally tell us what's up so they show it in the only way they can.
If you believe that a dog should not react ever in any way in any circumstance then you shouldn't have a dog!
Becky
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Gnasher
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17-04-2009, 10:52 AM
Mahooli : talk to any dog warden ! Talk to any dog behaviourist. You just CANNOT have dogs going around biting people !! Growling a warning, yes, of course. Gosh, the number of times Hal growled at me and OH, the old git. But bite? Snap? Never !!

I can't believe I am reading your words.
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