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Lurcherlover
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02-11-2008, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
Just a quick word of warning. Whilst researching diet for my own dog I came accross a lot of breeders who claimed that whilst they fed raw diets they had a lot of still born puppies. Many of them put it down to the raw food, but it seems that it is in fact that the typical raw diet doesn't contain carbs. Whilst there is no dietry *need* for carbs for most dogs (this is not to say that lots of dogs won't do better on carbs - mine does) there is a need for carbs in pregnant dogs if you want to give the pups the best possible chance of surviving and thriving.

Your best bet is to talk this through with your vet. I believe that a lot of research has been done on the subject so he should be able to give you hard facts and figures. It's not the raw that's the problem, but you need to make sure that you have the correct balance of fat, carbs and protein - and as I understand it a typical low carb/carb free raw diet won't give the pups the best chance of survival. I *think* I remember reading that something like 26% carbs is recommended, but I'm not certain.

My bitch gave birth 1 week ago today, she had 3 healthy pups and all are growing well and thriving, they are double their birth weights now.

She had no carbs in her diet and still hasn't nor do i intend to add carbs. There has been no problems with the pups health nor hers, so i think that the carbs and pregnancy thing is absolute b******s.
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Sarah27
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03-11-2008, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Lurcherlover View Post
She had no carbs in her diet and still hasn't nor do i intend to add carbs. There has been no problems with the pups health nor hers, so i think that the carbs and pregnancy thing is absolute b******s.
Great to hear! I still haven't quite figured out what the obsession with carbs is about
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Ziva
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03-11-2008, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Sarah27 View Post
Great to hear! I still haven't quite figured out what the obsession with carbs is about
No me neither, but then I keep thinking there's all these experts out there, some of them having studied the physiology of the dog and they all advocate carbs, so am I missing something?!

Can it really be that everyone has it wrong and the minority prey-model rawfeeder has it right? It doesn't hardly seem possible from my fence post!!
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scarter
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04-11-2008, 08:22 AM
Ziva, I don't think you are doing anything wrong in feeding a prey model diet if you're certain your dogs are thriving on it. Most experts (as opposed to fanatics) will tell you that there are lots of healthy ways to feed a dog.

Carbs aren't absolutely necessary. But some dogs will do better with varying degrees of carbs in their diet on a regular basis, and some will do better with some carbs at certain times. Some might well be better off without carbs alltogether. Perhaps the reason that most experts say it's beneficial to put them in a dog's food is because for the majority of dogs unnecessary carbs won't do any harm, but if a dog needs carbs it might do poorly without them?

With regards to preganant bitches the life threatening problem (to the pups) can occur in the last week of pregnancy and is due to insufficient glucose because of the very high need for glucose at this time. It's possible for the dog's body to manufacture this if it's on a very high protein diet, but by adding a little bit of carbohydrate to her diet you're guaranteeing that she's got readily available glucose in sufficient amounts. It's not absolutly vital that she gets the glucose from carbs, but the impression I got from what I've read is that this is the safest way to ensure she's got the nutrients she needs. We all know that malnourished strays *can* deliver healthy pups. But we're talking here about increasing their chances. Glucose deficiency is known to result in lots of stillborn pups.

Other reasons why it can be highly beneficial to feed your dog carbs is because working and sporting dogs rely on highly efficient energy systems. There are two types of energy system in a dog - fat fuled and glucose fuled. The glucose fuled energy system is used for speed and short bursts of explosive power. Glucose is more readily available if the dog has carbs in it's diet. It *can* manufacture the glucose from protein if it's on a high enough protein diet but this is less efficient. A dog that, due to genetics, has a highly efficient mechanism for producing glucose from protein might do very well without carbs. Other dogs (like mine) do very badly without carbs. Studies suggest that most dogs need carbs to perform at their best - even sled dogs (endurance animals with predominant fat fuled energy systems) are typically fed about 10% carbs for best performance. You won't know what your dog does best on until you try.

Apparantly, the reasons that Burns put mostly carbohydrates in their food is to avoid overnutrition. They claim that in their experience (as a vet) too many dogs suffer from medical conditions that are caused by too much fat and protein in the diet. His philosophy is that good health is maintained when what goes in is equal to what comes out (either as waste or energy). So the carbs are in Burns food primarily to provide energy without overdosing the dog on fat and carbs. Whether or not you buy the theory many dogs to exceptionally well on Burns food.

For what it's worth Ziva, my vet says she has lots of clients' dogs fed on raw diets (she didn't stipulate whether it was BARF or prey model but chances are some of each). She says they are all doing just fine - and she's been keeping careful tabs. But she also says they aren't doing any better than dogs fed on a wide range of other quality diets.

At the end of the day you ask yourself what's most important. Sticking rigidly to a feeding methodology or doing what's best for your dog. If your dog's doing great on a diet why change? If you want to see if you can improve on it then one way to do this *might* be to try introducing a little bit of carbs to it's diet. Or perhaps some more fat. All dogs have different metabolisms, predominant energy systems and lifestyles. What works best for one is highly unlikely to work best for most others. The theory or feeding methodologies are a way to get you in the right ball park - but it's not a religeon. If your dog does better when you go against the theory or methodology then it just goes to show that the methodologies and theories aren't complete and correct for all dogs.
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Loki's mum
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04-11-2008, 09:56 AM
Originally Posted by Vicki View Post
I switched to raw about a year ago, and I'm afraid I find it a bit of a minefield.

I have three shibas - two of which cannot tolerate raw chicken. Only one likes tripe. One won't eat pet quality mince.

One will eat anything, and damn the torpedos.

One will eat hardly anything.

The only thing that doesn't have an "affect" is supermarket mince - most everything else raw has a tendancy to "leave" quicker than it went in. They can't live on mince for the rest of their lives, can they? One will get bored.....

I've now started adding some tinned food to the mince to make it more interesting to the fussy one. I started with Chappie, thinking it would have the least effect. However, he turned his nose up....

It's currently driving me up the flaming wall

What a pain!!! Personally, I feed Nature Diet if I'm not feeding raw (ie. when on holiday etc.). Loki does well on that, but his breath does get stinky, so I have to brush his teeth...but I would recommend Nature Diet as a good alternative to raw.
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Loki's mum
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04-11-2008, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by hectorsmum View Post
interesting thread.

my experience of raw v's kibble is this........

my pup at 4 mths old started to refuse kibble, was lethargic, ran a temperature of 103 and kept having bouts of D&S.
the vet put it down to teething.

this refusal and picky eating continued and after trying different brands.

at 2yrs 3 mths he suffered from Bloat(no torsion) he was operated on and his stomach was inflamed which had blocked the opening to his stomach.

i then fed him tinned Chappie for 6 months on my vets advise. he loved it and never refused any meal.

we then had another Bloat scare. the vet wanted tests done to find out what was going on. he had bloods done for Addisons, EPI, Cushings and normal tests. also fecal tests for campylobactor, samonella, worms and giardia.

fecal tests had slight campylobactor and samonella which he was treated for.

bloods revealed he was deficient in Vit B12, which is a cause of Malabsorption. all the symptoms for this are the same as Bloat. he has been on injections now for 18 mths and things are improving.

my vet advised a change in diet and the only one left was Raw.

i have never looked back. he only gets picky now when his B12 levels start to drop (usually about every 2 months).

i DO blame kibble for this as it doesnt contain B12 which is a necessary vitamin. yes meat naturally contains B12 but this is lost in the process of kibble as its water soluable.

i think you need to approach people who have successfully fed raw and not just those who have had problems to be able to get a correct view for your research.

i have 2 dogs now that are fed raw, and yes i did have a problem with dog 2 with kibble causing D&S ALL the time.

here are some photos of before the raw and B12 injections



and after with the raw and B12.

My Mum's BC used to have tinned food and JWB. She switched to raw mince instead of the tinned food and Lottie filled out (she had been really skinny) and got a lovely long shiny coat. She is now on a combination of raw mince and Burns and looks fantastic. I am convinced the mince is responsible for causing her coat, body weight and muscle cover to improve. She also has no doggy odour and lovely teeth.
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Loki's mum
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04-11-2008, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
Just a quick word of warning. Whilst researching diet for my own dog I came accross a lot of breeders who claimed that whilst they fed raw diets they had a lot of still born puppies. Many of them put it down to the raw food, but it seems that it is in fact that the typical raw diet doesn't contain carbs. Whilst there is no dietry *need* for carbs for most dogs (this is not to say that lots of dogs won't do better on carbs - mine does) there is a need for carbs in pregnant dogs if you want to give the pups the best possible chance of surviving and thriving.

Your best bet is to talk this through with your vet. I believe that a lot of research has been done on the subject so he should be able to give you hard facts and figures. It's not the raw that's the problem, but you need to make sure that you have the correct balance of fat, carbs and protein - and as I understand it a typical low carb/carb free raw diet won't give the pups the best chance of survival. I *think* I remember reading that something like 26% carbs is recommended, but I'm not certain.
Pregnant wolves can't go a day without a bowl of pasta
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Sarah27
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04-11-2008, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Ziva View Post
No me neither, but then I keep thinking there's all these experts out there, some of them having studied the physiology of the dog and they all advocate carbs, so am I missing something?!

Can it really be that everyone has it wrong and the minority prey-model rawfeeder has it right? It doesn't hardly seem possible from my fence post!!
Don't lose the faith Ziva! Scarter has said herself on this forum that none of us are experts. For me the proof of the raw diet is in my dog and I certainly won't be changing, no matter what arguments are put forward for giving carbs to a dog.

I've been meaning to ask Scarter, what carbs do you feed your dog? I've been told that pasta makes dogs fat, rice is indigestible and potatoes contribute to joint problems (from varying sources, not from raw feeding 'fanatics' )
P.S. Loki - Bryan is in the kitchen as we speak cooking up a lovely carbonara
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scarter
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04-11-2008, 12:21 PM
I'd love to know which sources informed you pasta makes dogs fat, rice is indigestible and potatoes contribute to joint problems. I guess it's an improvement over "all carbs are indigestible!".

Apply some common sense to this...

Carbs have less than half the calories of fat. Meat is typically almost half fat. So I would have thought it would be pretty hard to make a dog fat by adding any source of carbs to it's meat. You'd actually be reducing the calorie content of the meal (unless you were daft enough to feed it pasta without cutting back on other ingredients!).

Rice is highly digestible. It's one of the most common ingredients in Burns dog food (white rice is the main ingredient in Burns Active, which I feed my adult dog. Brown rice was the main ingredient in Burns Mini Bites which I feed my pup - I also fed my oldest Mini Bites when she was young). One of the things that make Burns dog food so popular and highly respected is that it's a highly digestible food with very little waste. You actually feed much less on Burns than on most other foods.

As for potato causing joint problems - I've never heard of that. I have heard that all members of the nightshade family (potatoes, tomatoes) can cause or worsen arthritis in humans - but it's not accepted by mainstream science I don't think. I do know that RAW potato is difficult for dogs to digest, but cooked it's fine. What is it about the potato that is reported to lead to joint problems? I mentioned earlier an old book from the start of the last century about time proven methods of feeding Beagles and Fox Hounds during the hunting season (oatmeal, horsemeat and vegetables was found to produce the best performing hounds). That book recommended a huge variety of vegetables, but NOT potato or parsnips. It didn't say why.
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Reisu
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04-11-2008, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
With regards to preganant bitches the life threatening problem (to the pups) can occur in the last week of pregnancy and is due to insufficient glucose because of the very high need for glucose at this time. It's possible for the dog's body to manufacture this if it's on a very high protein diet, but by adding a little bit of carbohydrate to her diet you're guaranteeing that she's got readily available glucose in sufficient amounts. It's not absolutly vital that she gets the glucose from carbs, but the impression I got from what I've read is that this is the safest way to ensure she's got the nutrients she needs. We all know that malnourished strays *can* deliver healthy pups. But we're talking here about increasing their chances. Glucose deficiency is known to result in lots of stillborn pups.
We did this in my animal nutrition class today! *feels all clever like * I wonder how much of a factor it is. Would it be possible, for example, that dogs or breeds bred for endurance would be able to digest and utilize carbs better than those built for short bursts of speed? I remember my dog (greyhound) wasn't too good with carbs, even on burns his poos were quite large and he was quite sluggish compared to what he's on now (they sell it at pets at home.. i forget it's name nature's menu type thing though).
I think the main thing is variety; when I get my own dog I'll probably feed it on whole prey or prey model with added veg, rice etc and experiment until I strike up a balance. Interesting this nutrition stuff eh
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