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sallyinlancs
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27-06-2008, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
I really want to leave this alone but I can`t
Some basic info on NIs from the NI Society site is :

"Where a Northern Inuit has not proved a success however, is as a guard dog, due to their friendly manner and a willingness to greet any visitor as a long lost friend"

So that surely negates you wanting a dog to do Schutzhund with ? I assume it`s Alsatian which might make people think NIs could do it but that conflicts with the supposed total non-aggression NIs supposedly have ??
I thought your dog didn't have to be aggressive to do Schutzhund. TBH I wouldn't expect my dog to be an expert - just be able to go to a club and join in if he liked it.


And a breed being developed from some sled breeds with whatever other breeds thrown in does`nt mean the end result is a sled breed, in fact the Standard which was recently discussed theoretically makes NIs physically unsuitable for sledding - all very confusing
I don't want to go sledding. Not too much snow around here anyway.

and :

"Some N.I if introduced to livestock at an early age, will grow up not wanting to chase sheep and so on, but two or more N.I become a pack and pack instinct will take over, and as their prey drive is quite high, caution should be taken at all times when out near sheep, cattle or horses"

It does not however take two to be present, that`s a suggestion I feel which give`s an incorrect impression as any dog solo might chase stock, [ and often do ], but surely when researching it must have been clear that an NI living in a garden with sheep the other side of the fence and in a highly populated stock area might not be ideal and that management would be necessary, [ by management I mean the most secure fencing there is, never leaving a dog in a situation where escape is easily possible etc - Husky`s make Houdini look like an amateur and there is no escaping the likelihood of that trait coming to the fore ], but above all that its very clear if going by claimed breed traits that far from a learned behaviour NIs do have strong inherited traits regarding stock, this is not just a learned behaviour going on at all, and is something all NI owners should be prepared for in advance - and should, like the rest of the dog owning general population, keep them on lead at all times around stock.
When researching I found that there are many NIs who are fine with livestock. I made some stupid mistakes which helped him develop this problem when my intentions had been quite the opposite! I DO keep him on lead at all times around stock.
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Patch
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27-06-2008, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by abbie View Post

I wonder if Sally's questions would have been answered differently if she had owned any other breed of dog and not had her choice of breed pulled apart like has happened.

I do know how Sally feels having a dog that has a problem with livestock. We also had one that wouldn't just chase he would kill if given the opportunity. He was a border collie.

Breed traits do come into it, those would have been discussed whatever the breed concerned as each breeds traits have to taken into account and can give answers as to why some dogs are more prone to something than others or why something else might be going on if a dog is behaving very much outside of their breed traits, I can see why you might think it`s a case of `is it cos he`s an NI` but that`s not the way it is, not for me anyway, its simply a factor of looking at why the behaviour is occurring in an attempt from many to try and help, apologies to Sally and anyone else who feels it`s a case of `picking on an NI`
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Moobli
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27-06-2008, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by sallyinlancs View Post
Yet the majority of NIs I know do NOT have a problem with livestock chasing. Furthermore, many that HAVE had a problem have been trained successfully NOT to chase. So perhaps that GSD trainability is more influential than you are willing to admit?
GSDs are of course exceptionally trainable dogs. However, I have to say that the majority also have quite a high prey drive unless it is trained out of them at a young age.
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Moobli
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27-06-2008, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by abbie View Post
I do know how Sally feels having a dog that has a problem with livestock. We also had one that wouldn't just chase he would kill if given the opportunity. He was a border collie.
Border collies are the worst sheep worriers going if not trained and controlled.
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abbie
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27-06-2008, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by sallyinlancs View Post
I thought your dog didn't have to be aggressive to do Schutzhund. TBH I wouldn't expect my dog to be an expert - just be able to go to a club and join in if he liked it.




I don't want to go sledding. Not too much snow around here anyway.



When researching I found that there are many NIs who are fine with livestock. I made some stupid mistakes which helped him develop this problem when my intentions had been quite the opposite! I DO keep him on lead at all times around stock.
Sally you certainly don't need an aggressive dog to partake in shutzhund. The protection part is optional.

Quotes from the GSAI website below

Can any dog do this?

No, not all dogs are mentally or physically suitable engage in Schutzhund sport. A dog needs a sociable temperament, to be stable, sane and "clear in the head". In addition, the dog needs to be confident and self-assured. A dog that is vicious, fearful, or out-of-control is particularly inappropriate. In addition, dogs must not be aggressive toward other dogs, as they are always expected to be under control and ignore other dogs around them. This is specifically tested for in the pre-qualifying test (BH).

I am not comfortable with the "protection work" Is there still a way for me to participate?

Yes of course, GSA Ireland has an attractive raft of Domestic sport programmes which caters for most if not all interests and offers utility, obedience and tracking titles separately. Utility and Tracking level 1, 2 and 3 and Obedience Level 1, 2 and 3 are offered, as well as an engaging Search and Rescue trials titlingsyllabus.
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sallyinlancs
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27-06-2008, 08:20 PM
Thanks Abbie - there's hope for us yet then!
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abbie
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27-06-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
Border collies are the worst sheep worriers going if not trained and controlled.
Our border collie came to us as a pet at a year old from a sheep farmer who's dogs were all well trained and worked large areas of mountain. He had bred him. Unfortunately our dog had killed sheep on several occasions prior to us having him.
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Louise13
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27-06-2008, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
He's not too old for me, Ill have him with pleasure!
Dirty Mare
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abbie
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28-06-2008, 12:54 AM
I have just reread some of this thread, nowhere did sallyin lancs say she wanted a sled dog just a dog that would be a great all rounder including run along side a bike and pull a scooter. Yes ours do that and love it. But it can't be made their full exercise and you also have to take into account the weather and not ask them to pull when its too hot.

In reply to the person that said about the running on a long lead. What I love to see with my dogs is them running free and playing together. Can you honestly have more than one dog on a however long lead and get the same thing? Ok my dogs are around me but free is what they are. I honestly believe 3 dogs on leads however long wouldn't work and give the dogs the same enjoyment as playing together as they do.
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Patch
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28-06-2008, 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by abbie View Post
I have just reread some of this thread, nowhere did sallyin lancs say she wanted a sled dog just a dog that would be a great all rounder including run along side a bike and pull a scooter. Yes ours do that and love it. But it can't be made their full exercise and you also have to take into account the weather and not ask them to pull when its too hot.
Re sledding I was going by post 620- I tend to lump in variations of what are considered alternatives to sledding without the snow ie scootering, apologies for not being clearer

In reply to the person that said about the running on a long lead.
That was me too though long lines have been mentioned by many generally

What I love to see with my dogs is them running free and playing together. Can you honestly have more than one dog on a however long lead and get the same thing? Ok my dogs are around me but free is what they are. I honestly believe 3 dogs on leads however long wouldn't work and give the dogs the same enjoyment as playing together as they do.
We are`nt talking about three dogs though, Sally initially had the one so no reason for a line to be a problem there, and now she has another of which she says has excellent recall so for non-livestock area`s it`s not both who would need to be on a line, [ near livestock is a different issue as dogs should`nt be running around where they could spook stock anyway ].

I regularly took out a group of four together, my bridge girl Daisy-May, Defa, Gremlin and Willow.
Willow on the line played and tore around perfectly happily with the other three, I gradually built up how much line was out so that each of them was used to making sure they did`nt get tripped up by it, they would actually skip over it if Willow passed them or turned ahead of them, it never caused them a problem and because I had a line custom made for weight and thickness they were never at risk of getting hurt as they would from a thin flexi-lead type cord if they did`nt move fast enough.
Now that Willow is getting on a bit I have to be more restrictive due to his lactic acid problem so he gets to have brief chase about`s in the garden with the others but his walks are solo as it would`nt be fair on the others to have their walks cut short as his have to be these days, but certainly having one on a line in a group did`nt cause them any problems, I just had to make sure I knew what I was doing to let them get used to avoiding the line until they were used to Willow being on it

A correctly used line really is no encumberance to the dog, the idea is for the dog to not feel restricted and as a line should only ever be attached to a harness of a type which is also designed for the dog to not feel restricted it just is`nt an issue to the dog - we know they are secured to it, but the dog is supposed to be able to feel like they are running freely - when handled correctly and with practice, that`s exactly what they get so are no more restricted in their mind - the one that counts - than a voice only `lead` would restrict them, but with the handler having peace of mind that they can safely reel the dog in at such times as voice control only is not yet reliable enough to get consistent recall around distractions or on emergencies.
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