She is a very good Kerry though

Trust me it goes on in Irish setters. Even though I don't really show any more I can still judge a class by seeing who the judge is, looking round the ring, seeing the other end and getting the places spot on.

The best one I saw was at a championship show when a lady took her dog in and was unplaced. The next class (a higher level) a very well known breeder took it in and surprise, surprise won the class. When this was angrily pointed out to the judge by a couple of annoyed exhibitors he just said well it moved and showed better which is why it won this class when in reality you could see he had no idea that he had just thrown the dog out. My friend and I also put this to the test about a year later when I took my dog in and she was unplaced, my friend a well known lady in the breed then took her in the next class and she won. Unfortunately I don't think you will ever stop the other end of the lead judging.

I guess there is something to be said that when the dog has a top handler (like the Akita at Crufts had Liz Dunhill) - then they do make the very best of any dog given to them. I can handle getting beaten by a good dog in great hands, but not when they have really very obvious faults.

I recall at Crufts seeing a Rottie who reportedly had very bad cruciate probs and it was made into a Champ. His movement was poor. Needless to say his breeder/handler was extremely well known. It is very sad really, so many people who are at the bottom end of the ladder so to speak, own really good dogs but will never get a look in.

That said, I've seen face judging at all levels including Open Shows. I see the same person get placed EVERY time and they are a commitee member, doesn't do that well at Champ Shows though

I have even seen pet quality dogs put up before really nice examples of the breed, which really puzzles me as to what the judge is thinking of!!

Its true there is face placings in nearly every show you go to sadly, I have been to some shows and been 100% right on the placings, based only on who was handling the dogs, and not the dogs themselves, what needs to be taken into consideration here is, to become a "face" you really do need to be seen in the rings often in doing this you gain experience in how to handle the dogs, and learn to show your dogs so that you bring out the best in them.

mo

Anne-Marie.

Just an aside on the Akita and liz dunhill. Yes, she is an experienced handler and I know the dog was young but I cannot abide stringing a dog up to move it. It looses its front end completely...even in a tough dog like an Akita, the area behind the ears in sensitive. If the dogs can't be run on a looser lead, IMO they are not ring-ready. Longevity in the fancy is not always right (slightly OT, please forgive!)

mary

Good handling can't hide an unsound dog though can it? At least it certainly didn't at Crufts that day.

At my very first show with Isla I was told by the judge to string Isla up and in an attempt to show me he promptly dropped his book on Isla's head! Thankfully it didn't put either of us off.

Springers are NOT strung up and nor will mine ever be, but it is creeping in in the breed.

No it cant hide unsound dogs, dogs with bad movement, but it can with correct positioning of feet give a better top line on the stand, not having lead to tight and the pulled up, ruin the front movement, bait the dog at the right angle to make sure neck length is shown better etc, dependant on the breed of course, it cant cover a dog that is lame or flicks feet in/out, but if you have two dogs that move pretty much the same, a good handler can show the other points on their dog better.IMO or course.

Mo

To be fair, there is a lot of truth in that, a dog will not win on its own, the handler had a lot to do with it, in as much as how they show it.

A good handler can make a nice dog look and move outstanding a bad or inexperienced handler can cost a dog no matter how good it is a placing.

There are 3 things needed in a dog when it is shown, movement/structure and the way its shown off...a good handler can get a dog that may lack one of the above, , to excel in the ring.

A bad handler can hinder an nice/good dog .
So although I agree face judging does go on, but "who's on the end of the lead" plays a huge part in a dogs showing carrier

I'm not going to say it doesn't go on ... and it does in Gordons too.

But I can't bear it when people can't take being placed down the line and accuse the higher places because of it - a friend of mine was having a right huff and puff cos her dog who was being handled by her daughter came 5th out of a class of nearly 20! "Top two faces - look at that" she moaned to her husband - and to be honest they weren't at all! The winning dog moved fantastically really powering - the judge at Crufts was very hot on movement.

Then later I asked how the other dog got on and low and behold the daughter (age 13) says oh it was all faces in the line up.

I think its sad when having been winning that you start justifying not winning by being beaten by so-called faces!

But its very sad it does go on and its surprising how many breeders are now showing for owners in our breed - whether it makes any difference I really don't know.

I didn't go to any champ shows last year but hoping to get back out there this year - whatever happens I take the best dog home.

This is so true - I watched a few at Crufts who just didn't seem to move their dogs well at all - the dogs wanted to drive out but the handlers pottering along so dog skipped rather than drove out!

Then standing them - legs overstretched - or too short so bum-high look!