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smokeybear
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01-09-2012, 08:03 PM
Dinosaurs exist both in the police and civilian world, just because I saw A handler from (police/military/security/civilian) this would not mean I would make sweeping generalisations.

I have HEARD a lot of things, how much kudos I give to hearsay is the same amount I give to the statement that there is a man in the moon.
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aron
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02-09-2012, 06:20 AM
one person seen does not repersent a thousand un seen the police do change with the times but what you have to think about they are not pets they are breed and reared to protect or bite if they are told to stop or bite it would be for a reason not for fun so hard trainning is sometimes justifided it may be old but it works and a bloody good job they do (sorry old man a police dog handler twenty years ) i grew up with gsds they loved it a well trained dog over a un managed has my vote every time
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Wysiwyg
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02-09-2012, 07:33 AM
As far as I am aware, the police dog training manual from years ago has never been altered, and this is the manual instructors will go by.

However - there are certainly some more forward thinking police dog instructors and handlers - for example we know that David Ryan (who is now a behaviourist with the APBC) was both a handler and instructor, and in his own words he was able to help pull his dog handlers out of the dark ages

So I think a lot may depend on the knowledge and inclination of the instructor. If he/she only knows choke chains, they will pass down to the dog handlers that same old method.

Years ago now, police dog Acer was killed by old methods. He had a ruptured liver. His handler had not wanted to helicopter him and kick him, but his instructor made him do so. It is said that there was a shake up afterwards but I am not sure how far that has gone.

So my view is that the potential is certainly there for harsh methods and that no doubt that does still go on. I believe sometimes behind closed doors you do get punishments such as shock collars, choking until dogs lose consciousness, etc. However proving it would be a totally other matter... very hard to do so.

We do know, thankfully, that many dogs in the police and arm are trained beautifully with toys, games etc especially the sniffer type dogs

When I was at Bishop Burton we had a police dog handler doing the course, he had a Malinois and was really excited to see what could be done with a clicker and reward based training. We also had an army dog handler who was the same. I do think people are open to it, it's often just lack of know how or a sticking to tradition that can cause the problem

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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02-09-2012, 07:41 AM
sorry double post
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nickmcmechan
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02-09-2012, 08:24 AM
I have only met a couple of police handlers and they used kind methods
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Moobli
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02-09-2012, 10:35 AM
I remember the death of Acer in 1997 quite clearly - and also the uproar (absolutely justified) that ensued at the time. There was a massive loss of confidence in the police training methods and in handlers/instructors themselves and many dog rescue charities (such as the RSPCA, NCDL (as Dogs Trust was back then) and GSD breed rescue) stopped supplying "gift" dogs altogether.

Acer didn't however die in vain, as there was a massive shake-up within police dog training establishments all over the UK as a result of Acer's death coming to light.

It was recommended that Forces implement an Animal Welfare Lay Visitors Scheme - and many do.

Taken from the ACPO Police Dogs Manual of
Guidance 2011

Lay Visitor Animal Welfare Scheme
It is recommended that Chief Officers introduce a lay visitors animal welfare scheme which will enable appointed members of the local community, who may be accompanied by professionals from animal welfare organisations, to observe and report upon
conditions under which police dogs are housed, trained, transported and deployed. It is considered good practice to involve representatives from the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust
etc in such schemes and also to involve police authorities so that the arrangements for such schemes can mirror those that are established under the Police and Criminal
Evidence Act in respect of persons detained in police custody.

I can only talk from my experience of spending many hours with a Home Office Approved Police Dog Instructor - seeing him training his own dogs and attending various training sessions with dogs and handlers under his guidance, as well as attending various police dog trials. Myself and friends also had an open ended invite to go to South Yorkshire Police Dog Training School and watch how they trained their dogs. We did this on two occasions.

After those experiences, I have nothing but praise for the way the dogs were treated and trained, and it gave me confidence that, under those particular instructors at least, police dog handlers were not only being taught how to train their dogs to the highest standards using positive reinforcement training, but also how to care for and respect their dogs.
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smokeybear
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02-09-2012, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
As far as I am aware, the police dog training manual from years ago has never been altered, and this is the manual instructors will go by.

No it is NOT necessarily the manual instructors go by.

Years ago now, police dog Acer was killed by old methods. He had a ruptured liver. His handler had not wanted to helicopter him and kick him, but his instructor made him do so. It is said that there was a shake up afterwards but I am not sure how far that has gone.

E collars and prong collars are now banned and having attended many many training workshops and seminars where the police have been, I can attest they do not use them.

So my view is that the potential is certainly there for harsh methods and that no doubt that does still go on. I believe sometimes behind closed doors you do get punishments such as shock collars, choking until dogs lose consciousness, etc. However proving it would be a totally other matter... very hard to do so.

Of course the above applies to ALL societal groups including civilians.

We do know, thankfully, that many dogs in the police and arm are trained beautifully with toys, games etc especially the sniffer type dogs

When I was at Bishop Burton we had a police dog handler doing the course, he had a Malinois and was really excited to see what could be done with a clicker and reward based training. We also had an army dog handler who was the same. I do think people are open to it, it's often just lack of know how or a sticking to tradition that can cause the problem

Wys
x
Police dogs/handlers are no different to civilian dogs/handlers; there are good, bad and indifferent everywhere.
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Ramble
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03-09-2012, 06:25 PM
What an organisation SAYS and what it shows to the public and visitors is not necessarily what goes on.
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smokeybear
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03-09-2012, 06:26 PM
Just like everyday folk.
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Moobli
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03-09-2012, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
What an organisation SAYS and what it shows to the public and visitors is not necessarily what goes on.
This is true of any individual or organisation. However, I have had an "insider's view" as it were, of police dog training in one county - so can say with absolute confidence that when that particular instructor was in charge, that all the handlers were taught to train their dogs using positive methods (he has since retired).

Of course this is only one instructor and one county, but I would hope that this is not a rare occurrence throughout the UK.
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