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Ramble
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19-07-2006, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Flipper
If its a method that works when the owner is not around....whoever is doing it will make a fortune in California. Seriously, I know quite a few people...different trainers, behaviourists etc that have tried all kinds of methods but nothing is guaranteed while the dog is unattended.
Answer...don't leave them unattended in risk areas....
Ramble
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19-07-2006, 08:28 PM
arghhhhhhhhhh...I said I wouldn't post again!!!! Sorry being strict with myself this time. night all. Ax
cth1013
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19-07-2006, 08:33 PM
Thank you all for a vibrant discussion. I guess no one changes anyone's mind on here, but that's to be expected. I'll be sure to correct the APDT mixup on the other posts of mine.

Good night,

CTH
eRaze
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19-07-2006, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Sorry Az, what I meant to add was that I know what its like to be on the receiving end of continual attack from people who do not share your views, Dogsey (had to correct that!) has always been one of those forums where you CAN express an opinion, which is why as the site owner I was dissappointed in your input on this thread. Forgive my ramblings, just speaking aloud.
Dawn.
Dawn - people can still express their opinion, and I'm sure Clob will testify that he has had more freedom on Dogsey than he has on any other leading site in the UK.

However, at the same time I cannot let the site be used to promote the use of something which as a site, (including it's members) we feel is cruel in certain circumstances - especially in the case of it being used when not absolutely necessary.

As I've said we're open to hearing discussion about the use of these collars in life threatening situations but I cannot see why they should be used when other less painful/cruel techniques can and are being used to treat the same problems. If people begin to see these as a quick fix then countless dogs will suffer and that goes against our ethos completely. I have no doubt they 'achieve' what they intend to, possibly quicker than more humane methods... it is a system based on fear after all (just look at how effective some religion is) but that's not what you sign up to when you bring a dog into your life, to love. You just don't 'shock' something you love, not unless you have no other choice.

I think the e-collar industry, least in the UK, needs to take a look at itself and ascertain whether they want to go down the route of the collars being used as a specialist-only treatment administered by a vet or other professional (possibly not for public use/sale) as opposed to them being sold to any old Tom, Dick or Harry who can't be bothered to learn about dog behaviour and fulfil his obligation to care for the dog in the best possible way - for the dog, with the dogs best interest at heart.

Both paths are very different in how they are seen by the public - one gives them credibilty, the other does not.
Clob
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19-07-2006, 08:40 PM
eRaz
Dawn - people can still express their opinion, and I'm sure Clob will testify that he has had more freedom on Dogsey than he has on any other leading site in the UK.

Denis
Yes thats perfectly true, but, on a dog info board surely that should be the norm everywhere, it is not, so other boards cannot call themselves information boards, I would have no objection if they said clearly "Restricted Information Only".

So I guess pet owners should ask what hidden agenda those boards have and why are they resticting information to adults capable of making their own minds up based on ALL information given when information is allowed. We are talking about dog training not the inner circle of hidden magicians.
Borderdawn
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19-07-2006, 09:06 PM
However, at the same time I cannot let the site be used to promote the use of something which as a site, (including it's members) we feel is cruel in certain circumstances - especially in the case of it being used when not absolutely necessary.
I agree with that.
Dawn.
eRaze
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19-07-2006, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Clob
eRaz
Dawn - people can still express their opinion, and I'm sure Clob will testify that he has had more freedom on Dogsey than he has on any other leading site in the UK.

Denis
Yes thats perfectly true, but, on a dog info board surely that should be the norm everywhere, it is not, so other boards cannot call themselves information boards, I would have no objection if they said clearly "Restricted Information Only".

So I guess pet owners should ask what hidden agenda those boards have and why are they resticting information to adults capable of making their own minds up based on ALL information given. We are talking about dog training not the inner circle of hidden magicians.
Actually no. Let's get something clear from the outset. Websites are not a public service where anyone can come in and out of, or abuse at will (hence we have terms of use to protect us) - most websites are privately owned and don't 'owe' you or anyone else a platform to speak from to promote your wares. Least of all about something that they may not deem acceptable or feel uncomfortable about.

Dogsey has an obligation to Dogs as well as dog owners and will not shy from having a stance on topics that effect them in such a fundamental way.

As I have stated numerous times, we are still open to discussion about the use of e-collars as a last resort treatment. The more we hear about their use in non critical circumstances we are pushed closer to standing in the fight against them, for the reasons I stated above. In a nutshell, that is, if the industry does not self regulate and allows people to use them willy nilly we feel we'll have no choice but to push for a total ban. I can't be clearer than that.
leo
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19-07-2006, 09:18 PM
at last a post that makes sense.
maybe you should do a poll for and against to give you an idea who wants e collars to be banned etc.
Wysiwyg
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19-07-2006, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by cth1013
I want to apologize for mistaking acronyms during my first post--your questioning about my previous trainer made me look her up again and I realized she's a member of Federation of Dog Trainers and Canine Behaviorists (FDTCB), rather than APDT. I'm very sorry I misrepresented it and I'm posting this correction--I apologize for any confusion this may have caused. I honestly don't know the differences between these various associations. However, they nonetheless claimed to use positive, humane methods and that they could solve my dog's problem with their training course and personal consultations. Our trainer was also quite famous with several books out and several tv shows under her belt.

C.H.

So I won't be getting any PM regarding the name of the APDT member/s then? I see.

However perhaps you could still PM me the names of the trainer (you said you used 2, correct?)
Wysiwyg
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19-07-2006, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Know what, I always thought (given other threads) everybody was entitled to their opinion, and you are one who always said that each person may view things differently and we should respect that, seems on this one, Pro e-collar folk dont stand a chance, and you as the site owner are joining in. Its very one sided, even though I dont like them!
Dawn.
Thing is Dawn, most of us have known Clob/Denis Carthy for a long time, and he has even gone to the lengths of making up many names and post as different characters to support his stance...if you get my drift.
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