I swore at you ? Where did I do that ?

Wow, I thought I had written a decent friendly post explaining things and trying to understand where you are coming from.

I know, but the bulk of my continous dog experience is my wolfies, so although I have only just scratched the surface and I am of course still very much learning, I do know what I am talking about. Of course the northerns aren't unique, but anyone who has ever lived with one will say they are different. I am spoiled for any other type of dog, it has to be said.

No, you did not swear. I was making a statement about how I felt when some people admonished me. Your post was perfectly fine and I tried to touch in everything.

What about my GSDs were they too light years away from your designer"northern" breeds ? Odd that as at least one "wolf" type "breed" has GSD in in bloodlines.

Wow you have met 1 Cavalier (no such think as a "cavvy" unless you meant Cavy-the rodent species) I have met & lived with several more than that & the are definitely not all sweetness & light(had one of mine attacked & wounded by another Cavalier)

As for ALL collies being sweetness & biddable I think not, an untrained Collie can be lethal with added intelligent they can pull unknowing people like yourself into a false sense of security & then attack when you are least expecting it.

You presume I did not have the dogs I have worked with living with me 24/7 oh dear wrong again.

Still it wouldn't do for us all to worship at the altar of the gods that are domination & force dog training with all the tools of their trade which inflict pain & fear to instill compliance from dogs, would it ? My dogs are glad that I do not go down that path

I will continue to call dogs what I dang. Well please ... And I'm fully aware of the genetic make up of the CWD thanx very much.

Pull your finger out of your rear, remove the blinkers from your eyes and actually accept that your way is not a fit all, no more than mine is

Oh I see. Thats good. How difficult comunications on forums can be sometimes .

I'm absolutely knackered at the moment and I've lost the point of what i was trying to say so I'll have a re read and get back to you tomorrow.

Sorry but positive reinforcement in one form or another does fit all, fear & pain do not & have no place in the 21st Century.

Just because a method was used in the past doesn't mean it should continue to be used. I spend a lot of time putting right what force training has made wrong.☹

If you spend so much time righting the "wrongs" of "force training" then clearly they have found some place in society. E collars came after conventional old school, hands on training, and all this "research" that supports positive only training is fairly new. Dogs today are not more well behaved than in the past. Bite rates have not gone down worth anything, etc.

Same as how in general, all this new "grain free" and "natural" dog food has seemingly done nothing to improve the health of dogs, as cancer rates etc. are just as high as ever. Why gloat about how much better it is for dogs when there is no solid evidence that as a whole, it's making a difference?

Exactly Myra! I have all the hard evidence right before me ... Not only with my wolfies past and present, but my daughter's chihuahuas who respond very well to my firm, consistent training. They absolutely worship me, follow me round when they are staying but know that when I say "bed" that means into the kitchen and on their bed. They are with me at the moment. Just let them out in the garden whilst I make the tea, let them back in, gave them one of ben's dog treats and back they go on their bed. The kitchen door is open, but there they stay. If that is not positive I can't think what else it could be!

As I said before, your dog is an example of how effective your training is. Fearful dogs that sink to the floor in front of their owners have been broken by them and have "shut down". Dogs that flinch when the owner moves suddenly are scared. Harsh training usually bears side effects. Not all dogs respond the same to all training.

For example, some people told me that a clicker was a godsend for training. It's used for positive reinforcement training. I was thrilled, so I got one. Epic fail. My Nigredo only wanted to play with the device as the click was very exciting to him.

Try training a sit when every time you click, puppy jumps for joy and lunges for the device in your hand. Couple that with how annoying that darn clicking is, I easily decided it wasn't for me. Now the clicker is dangling from my keychain as an accessory.

Train your dogs not how you want to, but how you need to. I've seen dogs who were trained to walk loose leash using food who hardly pay attention to where they're going and are constantly looking upwards waiting for their treat. Makes me giggle. My dogs need to be aware of their surroundings when we are walking, I'd never want my dogs to not pay attention like that.

I've seen dogs jumping up and down while the owner meekly says... sit doggy... sit doggy... after seven tries, the dog sits for five seconds and then gets back up. Then you see pulling dogs at the pet store (which I love and take Nigredo often) and when you give a disapproving look (my Nigredo does not do this) they nervously and feebly explain "He just gets excited here". It's so funny, as they are totally embarrassed as a well behaved dog and his owner obviously scrutinizes them.

Then you have the owners who just don't care... take a stolen item from a dog with a giddy, baby voiced "Who's a naughty guy???" and a smile and a head pat as the dog happily chases the owner to try and get the item back. I mean, really? Then of course you have owners such as the guy who owned Fenton the black Labrador. Look it up and you'll see what I mean.

All in all, my point is that if your dog is well behaved and well adjusted, then you've done better than tons of owners and I won't say your training method sucks or has "no place". The proof is usually in the pudding.