If this is correct, he should suffer the consequences.

Just looked at the first few moments of that video. Who does that woman think she is? SA is about dogs controlling people?????? She certainly doesn't know very much, and is spreading stupid ideas. Meanwhile the poor dogs with SA are suffering.

I just feel so sick sometimes. Adam seems to bring nothing but misery. I think I'm starting to have enough of him on this forum.

Azz has said we can effectively ban him (see Azz's post).


Wys
x

Adam emailed her a question on sep Anx, so she, on a youtube vid, has explained to him how to use the collar to "help" the issue. apparently adam is her number one subscriber in the UK!

the quote was from this thread, which is basically saying what his buddy from the US told him

It may not be a punishment but it can involve frustration, which is certainly not a positive emotion.

For positive reinforcement to work the dog has to understand the principle of perform x=reward z, and so expect a reward.

If that expected reward is not forthcoming the frustration experienced is what causes the dog to up its performance - it ups its work rate in terms of speed, repetition or behaviours offered, this is a fairly basis principle of improving performance over time and is part of a variable reinforcement interval or rate.

If this increased work rate due to frustration results in more positive reinforcement, the raised performance has been strengthened, or the dog's experimental new behaviour has been introduced.

If the increased performance is not eventually positively reinforced this would have been an extinction burst, whereby a behaviour increases, possibly including alternative substitutions, and possibly more than once, before being abandoned.

So the dog is not just working for/motivated by the positive reward, but it is also strongly motivated by the frustration of withheld potential rewards.

Hence the technique may not involved positive punishment but it does involve negative reinforcement (i.e. added frustration) reinforcing increased effort.

Withholding the reward could also be considered as negative punishment, i.e. gradually suppressing alternative behaviours by not rewarding them, while the positive reinforcement strengthens the competing required behaviour.

I don't see frustration as a punishment. No more than you had to endure when you learned to tie your shoe laces. Your own personal will made you want to learn, perhaps with a bit of coaching from your parents

I'd rather that than some git slapping me every time I tried to tie my shoe laces but got it wrong.

As I said, it isn't positive punishment, but neither is it an entirely positive experience so to use the old fashioned black and white terms of reward being nice things and punishment being any not-nice things, it could be argued that even positive training had to involve some negatives = not nice= punishment, not forgetting that withholding the reward is negative punishment anyway.

So many of these things are about personal perception, which by definition varies from person to person, however for the reasons given I do not think talking about punishment, in that sense, being a part of what is termed "positive training", is at all nonsensical, hence it is not an oxymoron.

I would certainly classify ignoring as a punishment, and that is withholding attention. I think some dogs actually deal better with a quick mild positive punishment, that is understood and then over and done with, such as mild lead check, than with some more psychological punishments which can lead to greater confusion and frustration, and sometimes unintended fallout e.g "time outs" contributing to separation problems.

IMO frustration can be very punishing in some circumstances, just look at trying to deal with some call centres to resolve a problem with something!

Frustration is part of the natural development cycle - not being able to do something often makes us try harder to do it. Ref shoe laces example.

More importantly, 'frustration-training', if you want to call it that, is more acceptable than punishment/pain training. Because 'frustration-training' is a part of life - we all go through it - and it doesn't feel like a punch in the teeth or an electric shock.

Punishment is not synonymous with pain, although pain can be punishing.

Punishment suppresses a behaviour, a hand clap, that can be a noise aversive or a distraction depending on the individual's perception, can be termed a punishment by suppressing a behaviour.

Unless done very loudly right by a dog's ear it is not usually painful.

A light lead check likewise can distract, interrupt, redirect, guide or physically prevent. None of which involve pain but all of which suppress a behaviour.

Whether frustration causes an individual to try harder depends whether than individual thinks it is worthwhile.

Some give up when faced with frustration instead. With most it depends on how much frustration is experienced i.e. what the costayoff ratio is.

As for frustration being a part of life (I agree but that doesn't stop it being punishment), pain is also a part of life, often inflicted by the environment, dogs skin stop pads, cut paws, trip over, get in fights etc.

Pain is essential to learning about the environment and as a warning.

People born insensitive to pain have enormous problems with self preservation, injuries and safety.

And you might notice that the only people who post agree with her. If you don't, she deletes the post and bans you from commenting on any of her videos. She can't take criticism at all. She's as much a sociopath as Adam is. People like that should be kept FAR away from dogs.

I can't believe there is like... four pages to this all ready!! Like some of you I can understand why a shock collar would be used to teach a dog to avoid something such as a dog that has a penchant for killing snakes... even posionous ones (like my folks JRT) I'm not a fan of those tools but I hate to say it that a vibrate-only collar might be the only way to get him to leave them alone. He has been 4 times all ready & has almost died twice from rattlesnake bites.

Vibrate collar is different than an e-collar.....