I suppose one could also say that even if dog behaviour is inherited from a common wolf ancestor, it is quite likely that individual behaviours have been corrupted through domestication and their original meaning and intention could be distorted or lost in a dog.

My guess that those criticising scientific wolf research here have read very little of it.

I don`t read wolf research because I don`t have a wolf. I suppose it`s quite romantic to imagine you`re striding across the tundra with your (almost) wolf beside you but it`s a bit like calling your tabby cat `Tiger`.

I see where you're coming from but as a feline behaviourist you'd be surprised how much like lion behaviour, is the tabby cat's behaviour!! Cats have been subjected to nowhere near the domestication process of other species & there is some doubt in the scientific world, that they are domesticated at all, in the true sense of the word.

There seem to be 2 threads now on the value of using wolf behaviour to interpret domestic dog behaviour! Both started as something completely different, but have ended up discussing the merits of dominance, pack status, etc!

I think that there is some merit in using the behaviour of wild wolves in their natural habitat to interpret the possible origins & motivation for some domestic dog behaviour. But we must be careful & appreciate that there are limits on this & that the behaviour of domestic dogs is now so far removed from wild canid behaviour that it has limited use for domestic dog behaviour.

As for using studies of captive or tamed wolves to interpret domestic dog behaviour, I find this a more flawed concept. It would mean using unnatural & “forced” behaviours of a wild animal to interpret the far removed behaviours of a domesticated animal. The process of domestication took tens of thousands of years for dogs ~ it didn’t happen overnight. So using the behaviours of a captive wild animal, kept in unnatural conditions, in no way resembles how domestic dog behaviour has altered through many, many years of domestication.

But it is not just the concept or value of using wild canid behaviour to interpret domestic dog behaviour that has limited use; it is also whether the interpretation & understanding of wild canid behaviour is correct is the first place!! Clearly there’s a whole lot of doubt that a hierarchical pack structure exists in wild wolf behaviour. Even those of you who criticise the work of David Mech, Boitani & others who now doubt the alpha, beta, omega etc structure, must surely accept that scientific research has shown that things are not so clear-cut & that the alpha/dominance type behaviours aren’t sufficient to explain lots of behaviours & interactions between wolves, or between dogs.

So if the whole hierarchical pack structure concept is no longer sufficient for wolves, why on earth is it still being used in domestic dog behaviour, which we already agree is far removed from wolf behaviour?

BTW ~ for those wondering where the term “omega” came from, I did give a suggestion as long ago as post 8 in this thread.

I`ve a fair idea what you mean by it, Wilbar I somehow don`t think it`s the same as what the I own a Wolf brigade mean.

Can some body define "omega" dog to me please. What would one expect from such a dog in a home where there are other dogs?

Oh, "captive" Wolves are not the same as a domesticated pet!

Sorry I think you are very wrong. It can often be a breed thing, my friend who has 16 and has had over 10 for many years breeds collies and never saw it till recently when certain crosses were rescued.

Now she does.

Are you saying dogs don't have a survival instinct at all or are you saying it is different from that of a wolf---and if so how does it differ??

rune

For sure

I think my "wolves" are happily snoozing on my bed at the mo, with full tummies having "hunted & caught" a tray of Nature Diet this morning And my "tigers" are probably sitting on the window sill moaning about the rainy weather!

Well I don't own a wolf and have never thought of myself as owning one. I do own a lot of dogs and have done for a long time. Most of my observations are therefore personal ones. I have read Mech, Shawn Ellis has chatted and I have read Coppinger as well as sundry other books on percieved behaviour and training.

I have used all these experiences to try and interpret what I see and live with every day. Most of what I see fits with Shawns model.

I have friends with groups of dogs and for some the model is MORE appropriate, for some there is no visible heirachy or it seems to change.

With dogs, wolves and humans it is as well to be flexible and keep an open mind.

rune

Omega dog is a diffuser of situations, doesn't mean they give up things they have or go last everywhere.

It can show itself by worry and getting between potential flashpoint situations with other dogs and sometimes with humans.

rune

Wilbar---I think for the majority of dogs and owners it has very little relevance----but it sometimes can have.

Which is why it is useful to know about it and not dump it out of hand.

rune