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Nlulu
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Nlulu is offline  
Location: huddersfield uk
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09-01-2010, 11:30 AM
Oh thats awful for you
Im new but had to say that its a horrible position to be in and I have something similar with my familys Akita years ago....she was great untill she got to about 3yrs old and then challenged us lots.
Same kind of things with biting because she was taking over beds/sofas etc. Luckily for us Akitas seem to have their emotions written boldly on their tail....if she was getting defensive at all her tail would drop (very noticable when its usually held high) and she would go very still....so maybe look out for these signs in Jake in the future.
The way we resolved it was go go back to puppy basics with her and we stopped letting her get her own way by supervising her more than we had been....everytime she tried to get on the bed/sofa she was gently pushed away and rewarded with a toy when she settled on the floor or in her own bed. Like the others have said using a training line would be great to as you can remove him from the area he is taking over from a distance and remember being consistant will be the most important thing. Our Akita (Indy) eventually worked out she wasnt allowed to control things and we could then invite her up for a cuddle on our terms so she didnt miss out.
I think the main thing we realised was that everything had to be on our terms not her deciding she wanted attention/food/sofa etc.....she could have all those things but when we decided it was the right time.
If Jakes problems arent something the vet can help with then try and talk to a behaviourist to find a method of training that you feel comfortable with or some books maybe.
I feel really sad for you that this has happened .....Indy upset us all for a while and my Mum never fully trusted her again which was sad as she turned out to be a loving and calm dog once she was sure of the rules.

I hope you can find some answers that will help you and that this doesnt happen again ....wishing you loads of luck with him
Meg
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09-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Hi Lauren first take a deep breath and calm down..xxx
May I make a number of observations as someone outside looking on ?
Firstly I can't say I am at all surprised by the events for a number of reasons . As I have said to you previously in another thread I think Jake has a bacterial infection and may be feeling ill. If I am correct this has been going on since November when the infection started. I sent pictures of another dog with what I think may be a similar condition and if Jake still has the symptoms displayed in the previous thread I would insist on further investigation by your vet (like swabs and cultures)

So firstly there is a distinct possibility Jake is not well and may be in pain..

Now to the other things..
Originally Posted by lozzibear View Post
. I went back through to my parents bedroom, and he was back on the bed! I told him to get down, but he refused. So I went over and tapped his bum (just a very light tap) and told him again to get down, he did. But he lay on the floor and wouldn’t budge. so I tried to pick him up (which he is used to), and he just went crazy. He started snapping at me, he bit my face and my hand. I eventually had to hold him to the ground, and hold him where he couldn’t get me. not something i like doing, but my first thought was to avoid getting bitten again. I waited a few seconds, then I jumped up and backed away from him. he just looked at me, like he was unsure what to do. I just said ‘bed’ and he ran (head down and tail between his legs) off into his crate. I followed him and locked the door. I was in so much shock.

Jake was doing something he wasn't allowed to do and he will have picked up on this from your body language. You went on to punish him which will have made him distrust you. Now doesn't know if or when he may be punished again and may feel the need to protect himself . If he was in pain somewhere he would try to protect himself even more.
I think the best course of action would have been to diffuse the tension by enticing the puppy off the bed and praising him for obeying, or slipping a lead on and encouraghing him off the bed in a bright voice.

I gave him a cuddle, and he licked me. he seemed so fine, and completely back to normal. So I got his harness on and off we went.

This was probably because the tension had gone and with it Jakes fear..

Then two hours ago, I went into the kitchen to make a cup of hot choco. I gave jake a tripe stick, which he quickly demolished and then went and lay on the couch, somewhere else he knows he isn’t allowed to be. Once I was finished in the kitchen, I called jake to follow me back to my room which is where he sleeps. But he wouldn’t come. I went into the living room and tried to coax him through (didn’t try treats though, which I am kicking myself for now!), but he was having none of it. so I put my hand out, and was going to tap him off the couch, going very slow and carefully after what happened this afternoon. But before I even managed to reach him, he just lunged at me. and grabbed my hand!

Jake has now learn that you can be unpredictable and may hurt him...

I immediately backed off, and tried to decide what to do… I wasn’t braved enough to try again so I had to improvise and make a muzzle. I used his lead, there was no way I was going to try again without him being safe from biting me. so I put the lead around his mouth, tight enough to keep it shut but not so tight it would hurt him. I then tried again to move him, and he went crazy! And I know if I hadn’t wrapped his mouth up, I would have been bitten… a lot. I immediately put him in his crate, and he has been in there since.

I firmly believe that violence leads to violence, punish a dog and you risk not only breaking any trust which has built up between you, you are introduing an element of fear into your dog and this can cause the violence on both sides to escalate. Maintaing calmness/avoiding confrontation/diffusing the situation is for me the way to handle situations like these.

I never thought I would be scared of jake… but im scared to let him out. i definitely do not trust him to be out while I am asleep. I don’t know what to do… I don’t know why this happened… I think it might be a few things, this is so so out of character. He has problems with his eyes and ears
i also feel bad for, 1. holding him down and 2. using his lead as a muzzle... i had to though, otherwise i would have been bitten again... i just keep crying my baby...
Lauren I am not criticising your actions or trying to preach to you in any way, just making observations which may help you and others.
It is easy to get things out of proportion when you are scared and upset. Also you have had a number of 'problems' of late which will have contributed to a general air of tension, Jake will have picked up on this. Add to this his not being well.

With older dogs who have been well trained using positive methods, have learnt to trust an owner, have no fear (and have been taught bite inhibition for just such an occasion) these situations rarely arise.

All is not lost you can with a little care retrieve the situation, I will post about this separately or the post will become to long ...
Loki's mum
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09-01-2010, 11:49 AM
Some good advice so far Lozzi. All I will say is keep a house line on him, keep some treats nearby and try to stay positive. Jake is at that horrid stage at the moment and personally I think he is challenging you. Furniture needs to be out of bounds now and everything Jake gets he should earn by doing something YOU ask him first eg. sit, down etc. then he will learn that good things come from you when he gives you the correct behaviour. Good luck with Jake, and remember he is an adolescent dog of unknown breeding, possibly a combination of some challenging breeds. Remember to take each day as it comes and stay calm with him. Good luck hun, remember we are all here for you both!
Borderdawn
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09-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
I would agree with most of what has been said - you are obviously having a hard time at home - would most certainly NOT let you BF anywhere near Jake.

And I would leave a house line on him at all times.



But the dog is not well - and he gave warning, which she chose to ignore. This was not an attack for no reason with no warning.

Yes she had done it before - but not with the same situations occuring.

I also feel it is not acceptable for a dog to do this, but in the same breath, I understand that if you push a dog when it has given you warning it may be forced into biting.

From what she wrote (and has been writing) there has been a build up of tension and stress surrounding not only his health but the home situaiton as well, this could have been prevented with better management and understanding of the dog in this situation.

Hopefully the OP will have learnt from this and will be able to move on with a better understanding of how her dog works and how to aviod this situation in the future.
The dog had this condition before, he didnt attack. He gave no warning, a growl, raising his lip etc.. would of been a warning, he attacked WITHOUT warning, its not acceptable.
Tassle
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09-01-2010, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
The dog had this condition before, he didnt attack. He gave no warning, a growl, raising his lip etc.. would of been a warning, he attacked WITHOUT warning, its not acceptable.
From what I understand this is an ongoing thing -he has not had the condition before - he still has the same thing.

Warnings like growling and lifting lips are not the only warnings dogs give - Body tension (especially ears and lips), eyes as well - as I am sure you know.

The dog did not bite until she physically lent over (after she had told him and tapped him) and picked him up, which leads me to believe he gave warning. Unfortunately it was one the the OP either did not recognise or chose to ignore.

My interpretation of what was written was that there was warning - if someone had been explaining this situation to me I would have expected a bite or snap would follow.
However - I wasn't there.
mishflynn
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09-01-2010, 12:12 PM
I quite Honestly cant see why she would want to pick him up If any of my dogs are being naughty picking them up is the last thing i would do, Id just lead them out , not saying anything ,by their collar & treating them like theyve rolled in Fox poo.
valandra
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09-01-2010, 12:59 PM
Awww hun,

I hope your feeling a bit better now. Dont feel guilty about doing what you did, you only did that so that he wouldnt bite you anymore. Never ever feel guilty about that.

Theres some obvious training issues that need to be addressed as well as his health problems. Theres a lot of advice on here so i dont see the need to re-write what has been written.

Keep us updated on how Jake is doing
chaz
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09-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Hi Lozzi, I'm sorry about what happened, but you have been given some great advice here, and I also think that a house training line would help you.

I don't think that you know, but in 2008 I was given a bull terrier, who was a nightmare for his bull headed stubborness, and I brought a house line for him, this one to be precise but in black http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item...se-line---dogs
(I let someone else use it after him, but I think they still have it, so if you want me to I can ask them, and send it to you, although it will probally be monday that I can send it if you want, the other training things that I used for him I think I've allready given away, but you'll be welcome to this if you want it)

Punch had this on from when he got out of his crate in the morning, to when he went back into it at night (apart from on walks), and it may sound excesive, but it worked, he was a nightmare for going places that he wasn't allowed, time after time, inculding trying to get into a oven that was on but the training line allowed me to move him out of the way without any confrontation, as I could just pick it up and move him away like you would with a lead, and he would just then think well ok then, but to start with when I used this I didn't really talk to him until I got him somewhere else, I would just pick it up, move him, and take him somewhere less dangerous and give him a chew or something, then I would reward him for that, I also used it as he had a habit of running through children, and I could stop him before he did (although he did head butt my little brother upon meeting him).

Anyway I wish you all the best with Jake, and if your intrested in the house line just pm me, and I'll ask the other people about it and send it when I can.
Meg
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09-01-2010, 01:03 PM
Post 32 continued ...
Lauren I can only suggest to you what I would do in your situation to limit the damage with Jake who is after all only a puppy.

First see the health thread, get Jake thoroughly checked out by the vet. Do not let your Boyfriend examine him, this is the vets job. Your BF may accidentally cause pain and make things worse.
..stop being scared of Jake, he is a puppy looking to you for guidance, your fear will make things worse, behave as you would normally,
..avoid confrontational situations , close doors and don't allow Jake on the beds. If he sneaks on don't punish him or touch him at all but do as previously suggested encourage him off with a toy or treat in a happy voice then when he comes praise and reward the wanted behaviour, or slip a lead on and call him off for a walk. Just calling him now is pointless if he thinks you may punish him.

Try to rebuild the trust with Jake by praising him whenever he does something right. Be careful with cuddles if he may be in pain.

Do more training with Jake to rebuild the bond between you and to reinforce that coming to you is a pleasurable experience. This is one way I teach a puppy to come to me every time....
I start with throwing a piece of chicken a distance away and when the puppy goes to pick it up show it another piece.
As it comes toward me ( and only then) I add the word come so it learns to associated approaching me and the word with good things. I also give lots of praise and the treat when the puppy reaches me.

I do this exercises sometimes using toys instead of treats over and over every day so I am constantly reinforcing the wanted behaviour. After the behaviour is firmly established I give the treats randomly but always give lots of praise

Lauren try to take a step back and not to get things out of proportion, if you stay calm and 'lighten up' a bit things may look a little different. Jake is still a puppy and needs patient guidence not punishment and force.
(sorry having to rush this a bit, hope it makes sense)
lozzibear
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09-01-2010, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by tillytheterrier View Post
oh hun, im so sorry for you. i wish i could give you some advice but im a bit rubbish at that! dont feel bad. you did what you had to do. but two bites in a day isnt normal. maybe you should get a vet to check him in case there is a medical reason for this. or if nothing wrong there, maybe a good behaviourist? im sorry if these are things you've already done, i just havent read about. stay strong and try to act as normal with him. remember, he's still your boy. big hugs to you both from me and Tilly. xxx
thanks, I think im going to get an appointment at a different vet to the normal one, coz I wasn’t happy with them when I took him there last week so want a second opinion from a different vet.

Originally Posted by Stumpywop View Post
Hi Lauren,

I'm so sorry to hear you've been bitten and after reading some of your other posts on the board, I know it's completely out of character for Jake to behave this way. Firstly, please do NOT feel bad about holding onto him, holding him down or using his lead as a muzzle. We all know you don't do that sort of thing normally and you absolutely had to ensure you weren't bitten again.

You say he has problems right now with his eyes and ears? (Sorry I can't aaccess the Dogsey link you've attached). It could be that he is in some pain or feeling some discomfort and for whatever reason, cannot hear you properly so doesn't know what commands you're giving him. Although, if he can't see properly then suddenly he realises something is near his rear end, even though YOU know it's only your hand and you won't hurt him, maybe that's not registering with him at the moment.
It could also be that if he's not well anyway, the cold could be iritating what's wrong with him.

Please don't ask your BF to help check him over. I think in the first instance you should take Jake to the vet to rule out any other condition he may be suffering from physically. They can examine him properly and if you explain what happened, they should have muzzles there that will fit him properly and you will all be safe during the examination. Also bear in mind that muzzles are used also for the dog's safety, not just for ours. So you're not doing anything bad by using a muzzle (I felt incredibly guilty the first time I used one).
If you and your BF try to check him over you both risk being badly bitten if he turns and that doesn't bear thinking about.

Over the next week or so, I'd also recommend closing the door to your parents bedroom and any other room he shouldn't have access to. If he gets on the sofa and isn't usually allowed to then use treats or toys (whatever gets his attention) to get him down and reward him when he's dne as he's been told. Allow him to have a little more of his own space but still play with him and walk him, feed him etc as usual.
Invest in a muzzle. Put it on Jake at different times so that he doesn't think anything bad is going to happen to him. This is what I've had to do with my big GSD. it means I can take him to the vet and he's happy to wear the muzzle. He can't kill the vet (tempting as it is) and he gets rewarded afterwards for wearign it. it takes a little bit of the anxiety away for the dog, owner and vet too.

Finally, try not to feel apprehensive around Jake. He's still your loony pup who loves you to bits. When he bit you he obviously knew he's done wrong but probably didn't knwo why. I know it's hard but try to act normally and feel the same as you usualyl do inside. NO matter how good you are at hiding body language, Jake will pick up on how yo'r really feeling. And only cuddle him when he comes to you. Don't approach him fo ra cuddle or pick him up.

It could be any one of a hundred things that are giong onthat's set him off . Hopefully you'll get to the bottom of it quickly.

Laura xx
Thanks, yeah he has lost the fur around his eyes, its all red and he has a few wee sores around his eyes and mouth and his ears look very painful too. the vet thinks it is a mite but im not sure… I hadn’t thought about him maybe not being able to hear as well… that’s a good point. He has been in pain though, he randomly whines and tries to itch it a lot. Plus, around his eyes keeps bleeding.

We usually do close the bedroom door, but they sometimes forget and when the kids are here (my niece and nephew are around a lot) its difficult coz they always open it.

Im trying to be normal with him, my dad let him out his crate this morning while I was still asleep and I got woken by jake pawing at me. then when I opened my eyes, he came and snuggled up next to me, and gave me a few wee licks.

Originally Posted by Emrad View Post
Oh Chick, that is a horrid day you had with Jake. I am no expert on this but you sounded like you dealt with it as you had to and doesnt sound like the wrong thing, if it is a random act of a dog you know well it can be such a shock and bewildering, firstly he is at a challenging age so he could be trying to push the limit, but since he has been having trouble with his ears and eyes of late and is on medication it could be they are hurting him causing his unusual behaviour in him. It would be worth another vet visit as you said they were getting worse rather than better (maybe a different one that you can get a second opinion off)
As for being on beds maybe it is worth keeping him off yours for the time being as well, so there can be no confusion on what bed to hop on and what bed not to. It sounds safer to go back to crating him for a bit anyway.
I am sure someone will be able to help you more than me.
Massive hugs to you, you did the best you could with the shock of it, I hope tomorrow brings you some new light on the situation.
Thanks emma, its so so not like my boy… he never does anything like this. I think it must be coz of his eyes and ears coz its just so out of character and although he can be a first class pest on walks, his behaviour in the house is usually so much better than this. He really is so well behaved… yeah he gets into things he shouldn’t, but he does usually listen when told what to do, whether it be ‘drop’, ‘leave, ‘come’ etc.

Originally Posted by nickmcmechan View Post
sounds like he will need very firm consistent rules - if he's not allowed on one bed he's not allowed on any

if he misbehaves, maybe try to encourage him to off the couch/bed with a treat; if he refuses ignore him completely
thanks, I think I will have to stop him going on my bed, he just usually listens when told to get down so has never been a problem before.

Originally Posted by scorpio View Post
So sorry to read this...as it is completely out of character and he has been having trouble with his ears and eyes I would get him off to the vets as soon as possible for a thorough check up. I had an ear infection once and it made me very disorientated...if he is feeling that way then it could account for his actions.

I hope you get to the bottom of it, it must be so upsetting and frightening for you. xxx
Thanks, maybe that’s what it is with him, his ears could be making him feel a bit funny and disorientated… I just cant think what else it could be, coz although he pushes the boundaries on walks he doesn’t in the house, and earlier on that night he went on the couch twice, and as soon as I said down, he got off them.

Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
I agree with the Sheree get him to a vet. He is under the weather you say with his ears and eyes being sore so that is probably the cause.

Ollie has always been funny right from a pup about people walking over him if he is the way when he is sleeping he will growl or snap but never make contact this is his nature he is a nervous dog we accept it and find another way round it. Call him gently and wake him first or use treats he is nearly 4 now and he has never bitten.

I wouldn't say he is pushing the boundaries this sounds like he is feeling unwell. Might be wise for you and your boyfriend not to push the boundaries with him by feeling him all over let the vet take a look and see what they say.

Sorry you are feeling this way I had a dog that use too bite me but thats another story and it doesn't sound like the problem I had with her either.

Good luck let us know how you get on.
Thanks, I don’t think he is pushing the boundaries either, he does on walks but his behaviour in the house is great and he usually listens so well in the house. I think it must be his eyes and ears, he must be in pain and getting fed up with it now.

Originally Posted by MissE View Post
*hugs* for you hon, you must be feeling so strange xx
First off, you're not alone - I've been bitten by Missy and I know you can lose trust if you're not careful. (Mine was over a lamb chop I decided to liberate from her mouth!)

This is out of character for Jake, you know that. Hang on to that.
Get to the vet in case Jake needs pain meds for his condition.
Agree totally, consistent rules. All beds allowed - or no beds.
When you feel able- some on/off training. Make it fun, use the sofa or a pouffe to start and use treats and happy voices. Eventually all off/ on will be seen as a game.

Don't feel bad for what you had to do - its done and gone. Jake is no worse for it.
Deep breaths honey - and make the first stop the vet. Pain can make the most tolerant dog intolerant.
*hugs*
thanks, yeah you can lose trust. I am trying to be normal with him but I feel so wary and cautious. Jake has never ever done this, even when food or bones have been taken off him… he doesn’t growl (he did once to my niece but never to anyone else and we worked on it and now he doesn’t with her either) or tense up or anything… so it really isn’t like him at all…
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