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Gnasher
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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04-06-2009, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
So I am a cruel owner who subjectS her dog to a miserable life on a lead ...


Nice to see you have such a black and white view on things
Jackbox : Yet again, you take my posting entirely out of context. I said it was cruel to subject MY dog to a life on a lead. I wasn' implying that if you keep your dog on a lead, then you are being cruel, I have no idea what breed you are talking about. But to keep a supremely fit and active Alaskan Malamute cross Siberian Husky on the lead IMO would be immensely cruel.

And I wouldn't do it. I would ... and have, thanks to CM's methods ... trained him NOT to chase and eat the chickens when they escape out on to the set aside and hide under the hedge when we walk past. NOT to chase sheep when we bike past the field. To have a reasonably good recall. NOT to chase horses (I still have to put him on the lead if they canter ... working on that one !).

Thanks to using calm assertive energy.
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Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 03:47 PM
I am trying to find the official stats. for death of dogs by snake bite in the USA. Found this so far:-

"Dogs and Rattlesnake bites

If you have dogs and are interested in learning about the rattlesnake vaccine, please visit www.Redrockbiologics.com

Rattlesnake bites are veterinary emergencies - they result in serious injury to thousands of dogs each year. Rattlesnake venom is a complex mixture of toxins that spread through a dog’s body following the bite.

Dogs are at risk for rattlesnake bite – they can encounter a rattlesnake anytime they are in rattlesnake habitat. You and your dog may live near rattlesnakes. Like people, dogs stumble upon a snake by accident. Curiosity or a protective instinct can place your dog at risk. Red Rock Rattlesnake Vaccine helps protect your pet.

The rattlesnake vaccine stimulates your dog's own immunity. The vaccine is intended to help create an immunity that will protect your dog against rattlesnake venom.

Snakebite is always an emergency. For further information about this vaccine, please contact your local veterinarian. "

I will keep searching !
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Gnasher
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04-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Another quote :

Snake bites are often fatal to pets.
Depending on the bite location, age of the snake, amount of venom injected and time taken to get help, treatment can cost $1,000 to $3,000.
According to veterinary sources thousands of dogs die annually from snake bites.
And even if your pet survives they are left with permanent physical wounds and scars.
.................................................. ............

It's hard to find actual government stats in the States.
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wolfdogowner
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04-06-2009, 04:21 PM
I don't like e-collars at all. This is because they would require expert use and perfect timing and thats before any discussion about pain and morality.

I started a thread about the following: A couple of weeks ago my dogs were outside the house about ten feet from the front door when a visitor came in and said the dogs had found an adder. My big black cross bred dog (50 kilos) was pawing at it. So before anyone talks about walking dogs on leads or spotting snakes from a distance, I will point out that I had not seen one here before.

In hindsight and if he had had an e-collar on (which isn't likely) then I would have pressed the button then and there. He would most likely have run away (he has been bit by the electric fence). As it happens he was bitten. Within ten minutes he was unsteady and holding his paw up. Finding a new vet on a bank holiday isn't easy, but he was with the vet in about 25 minutes and going into shock. Literally passing out as I held him up. There is a big risk of heart failure. After plenty of steroids and a drip he was put on observation as his whole leg became swollen from the paw to the shoulder.

He recovered in a couple of days and the swelling went down after a few days and he is now off the antibiotics and my wallet is considerably lighter.

It is easy to condemn a technique outright, but there are situations where something that one would feel unjustifiable could be appropriate. A low dose of electric would have been less painful and less life threatening.

I would never condone the selling of e-collars to the general public because they might be led to believe that they are some kind of magic TV remote that will make a dog do what the lazy owner wants.
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ClaireandDaisy
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04-06-2009, 04:22 PM
There`s not many rattlesnakes in Essex.....I doubt if there are many rattlesnakes in many states in America, given the extremes of climate (Hawaii to Alaska). So saying cruelty is OK for this reason is spurious.
Would you burn your dog if it went near a snake to teach it not to? If the answer is no, well don`t justify causing equal pain with an electric shock.
There was an experiment with students who were asked to give increasing levels of shocks to test subjects (can`t remember what the trigger was).
Even though the subjects screamed and pleaded - the students continued to shock them because their tutor told them to continue. In fact the subjects were acting - but the students didn`t know that. They were compliant because someone in authority had told them to do it.
I have heard of one of these sessions where dogs scream and wet themselves after the first shock but are dragged back to repeat it again and again. This is sadism, not training.
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Tassle
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04-06-2009, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I am trying to find the official stats. for death of dogs by snake bite in the USA. Found this so far:-

"Dogs and Rattlesnake bites

If you have dogs and are interested in learning about the rattlesnake vaccine, please visit www.Redrockbiologics.com

Rattlesnake bites are veterinary emergencies - they result in serious injury to thousands of dogs each year. Rattlesnake venom is a complex mixture of toxins that spread through a dog’s body following the bite.

Dogs are at risk for rattlesnake bite – they can encounter a rattlesnake anytime they are in rattlesnake habitat. You and your dog may live near rattlesnakes. Like people, dogs stumble upon a snake by accident. Curiosity or a protective instinct can place your dog at risk. Red Rock Rattlesnake Vaccine helps protect your pet.

The rattlesnake vaccine stimulates your dog's own immunity. The vaccine is intended to help create an immunity that will protect your dog against rattlesnake venom.

Snakebite is always an emergency. For further information about this vaccine, please contact your local veterinarian. "

I will keep searching !
Stumbling upon them....the dog is likely to get bitten before it even knows the snake is there...as is what happens with most adder bites in this country.
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Labman
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04-06-2009, 04:44 PM
I am still waiting for some real numbers and I would like a more objective source that a company selling remedies.
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Jackie
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04-06-2009, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I personally would never condemn a dog to a life on a lead. Daddy at 14 or whatever age he was when this k.
Condemning A dog not your dog, speaks to me as in general rather than personal!!

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Jackbox : Yet again, you take my posting entirely out of context. I said it was cruel to subject MY dog to a life on a lead. I wasn' implying that if you keep your dog on a lead, then you are being cruel, I have no idea what breed you are talking about. But to keep a supremely fit and active Alaskan Malamute cross Siberian Husky on the lead IMO would be immensely cruel.

And I wouldn't do it. I would ... and have, thanks to CM's methods ... trained him NOT to chase and eat the chickens when they escape out on to the set aside and hide under the hedge when we walk past. NOT to chase sheep when we bike past the field. To have a reasonably good recall. NOT to chase horses (I still have to put him on the lead if they canter ... working on that one !).

Thanks to using calm assertive energy.
From what you see on the TV on CM training methods on aversion to chase , is typical of his violence towards dogs...

Are these the same methods you have used also!!

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I am trying to find the official stats. for death of dogs by snake bite in the USA. Found this so far:-

"Dogs and Rattlesnake bites

If you have dogs and are interested in learning about the rattlesnake vaccine, please visit www.Redrockbiologics.com

Rattlesnake bites are veterinary emergencies - they result in serious injury to thousands of dogs each year. Rattlesnake venom is a complex mixture of toxins that spread through a dog’s body following the bite.

Dogs are at risk for rattlesnake bite – they can encounter a rattlesnake anytime they are in rattlesnake habitat. You and your dog may live near rattlesnakes. Like people, dogs stumble upon a snake by accident. Curiosity or a protective instinct can place your dog at risk. Red Rock Rattlesnake Vaccine helps protect your pet.

The rattlesnake vaccine stimulates your dog's own immunity. The vaccine is intended to help create an immunity that will protect your dog against rattlesnake venom.

Snakebite is always an emergency. For further information about this vaccine, please contact your local veterinarian. "

I will keep searching !

Not sure where the comparison of the US and snake aversion , is relervent to the UK in justification for the use of these collars..
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Ramble
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04-06-2009, 05:03 PM
NO.
Using an ecollar is NOT training and nor do I think for one moment that the dogs retain the any work doen with them with an ecollar on.
I suspect my little rescue girl has had one on in the past.
Is she well trained. Nope.
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mishflynn
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04-06-2009, 05:26 PM
They are illegal in wales!!!! Bloody good job.

CM uses them because he teaches quick fixes through pain & fear.

If you need to use one to save your dogs life, i know a cheaper method & its called a lead!
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