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View Poll Results: Which CM methods do you use on your dog?
Do you make sure your dog has enough exercise? 26 68.42%
Do you use "calm Energy" when handling your dogs? 7 18.42%
Have you ever used Foot tapping for attention? 1 2.63%
Have you ever used Foot tapping for correction? 0 0%
Have you ever used "tsstg" for attention 1 2.63%
Have you ever used "tsstg" for correction 1 2.63%
Have you ever used the "hand bite" for attention 0 0%
Have you ever used the "hand bite" for correction 0 0%
Do you use prong collars 0 0%
Do you use the illusion collar, or other NONslip slipcollar 0 0%
Have you ever used flooding to overcome your dogs fear 0 0%
Have you ever pinned your dog to the floor 1 2.63%
Have you ever pinned your dog to the fllor for any reason other than aggression 1 2.63%
Do you alpha roll your dog? 0 0%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Wysiwyg
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05-10-2009, 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
That's the whole point, Wys, it ISN'T !! It's the commonsense way of doing things, and that's what CM's methods are ... pure commonsense.

Try and forget the bits you don't like ... you say you don't like the pinning, the "stringing-up" as you call it (although we disagree on this) ... and concentrate on the good bits. There are plenty of other trainers I like, I am not just a blind devotee of Cesar. There are elements of Cesar I do not like, as you well know, I hate the use of gadgets of any kind being the biggest hate of mine.
I get what you mean Gnasher, and I think I've always said that there are bits of CM methods that many of us would agree with (and I think we also agree that they are not exactly his methods, but him reiterating in public what many have said previously, about how dogs need exercise, etc).

I do have a problem with agreeing with anything he says on some levels, because of my view about the rest of what he does.

So, although I can agree with you in that some of what he says, (ie exercise) is good for dogs, I feel uncomfortable about "supporting" him in any way by saying yes, lots of common ground here, sort of thing. I am absolutely secure in the fact that he does use what are extreme and abusive methods, so I cannot support him as such even if there does appear to be common ground .

It's like me saying I support someone who believes in exercise for humans, but will still use brutal methods in the human world to those humans who had the misfortune to be under his/her control - which would be unthinkable.

So, I go so far as to say that I acknowledge there is the odd good thing he suggests, and perhaps there is "common ground" there - but not further than that: and even saying that does make me personally feel uncomfortable!

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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05-10-2009, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by cordie View Post
excellent post scarter, you said everything i wanted to say, but so much better and gnasher i agree with what you said, dogs love excercise its a natural environment to them , its like breathing ,and they also love the companionship they share with humans, so put this together and you have a happy dog!!!
Dogs do love exercise; however it is possible to over exercise dogs at times and also it's possible to do so much with one's dog that they actually become stressed out (I've been guilty of raising my dog's adrenalin levels too much which led to aggression towards other dogs at very odd times, and it took me a while to work out what the heck was happening because the behaviour was not linked to the activity).

Naturally, dogs might scavenge or hunt and then relax for much of the day -modern life doesn't really allow for this

Again, we need to look at individual dogs in context of their lives and not use a blanket comment, so I stress the above comments are generalising, but useful to consider.

I guess in a way a good analogy might be that of modern children who do ballet, choir, netball, etc etc and have little time to be kids - balance is key

When dogs are exercised, if doing something which might put unusual pressure on joints etc it is best to warm them up first, same as with any human athlete.

I think I've gone off topic a bit perhaps but anyway...!

Wys
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Annajayne
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05-10-2009, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Before I disappear to work, I would just like to add one thing. Scarter and I are not talking about delicate dogs here, we are talking about Beagles - who were bred to hunt in packs, covering many, many miles at a time - and Tai, who is a Mal cross Husky, both breeds designed to pull sledges across many many miles of deep snow in impossible weather conditions.

I don't think either breed are going to suffer much from a few miles running alongside bikes.

You antis are really having to scrape the barrel IMO.

Scrape away ... you will probably manage to come up with some more exaggerated nonsense for our amusement and enlightenment
There you go again, sarcasm spoiling good debating.
Wysiwyg
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05-10-2009, 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Indeed, Ben ! If I had a strong criticism of CM's methods (apart from the gadget thing), it would be just what you are illustrating. Idiot humans who totally misinterpret what he is advising. ....Calm, assertive energy is Cesar's mantra - not randomly hissing and pulling on a lead !
Every one of us has a big responsibility to think of what good or harm our actions can do

As a dog trainer/behaviourist, I'd be moritified if I was on tv, and suggested anything which the general public would pick up on and use in the way that so many mimic CM's hissing methods.

See, I think he has a big responsibility to ensure that he says and does nothing which can cause harm - and random hissing, esp, at puppies, may harm a relationship esp. with a sensitive dog and a frustrated owner...

He does have up the "do not try this at home" etc etc but, we all know that the GP do always, always try it at home.

He knows that too - he's just absolving himself. I have the same argument with a couple of other dog tv programmes, not just CM.

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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05-10-2009, 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Mmmmm, have you ever seen any other TV trainer strap an unfit dog to a skateboard or bike and tow them into exhaustion.

I think you could say , t on that he is exclusive
Oh gawd, please don't tell me he's done this (and done it on tv too....)

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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05-10-2009, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
I think you CAN overexercise your dog
With the crosses I have I have been told by many people - including some vets that 'its natural for collie type dogs to need to run up to 80 miles a day'
I know collie owners who are up every morning at 6 am taking their dogs for 2 hour long run, home at lunchtime for 1 hour, home at teatime 2 hours then another 2 hours in the evening
Result - super fit over stimulated dogs who are 'on' all the time, always bugging for a game or attention or something

..
Agree, one of the most important things to teach a very active dog is "how" to chill out.

Wys
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Meg
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05-10-2009, 09:19 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Just a point, no hunting packs ever take puppies out straight away on a full hunt, they build them up gradually, they go with puppy walkers first and then on short excursions before ever going on a full hunt, the same with those that race their sibes and mals, no responsible reputable person would take a dog, unused to lots of exercise out on a long haul straight away, they train them up first.
Becky
In my experience this is correct Becky

I think seeing a man speeding along on roller skates gives totally the wrong image to the public. It sends out a message that exercise is all about getting a dog to move at a pace over distances.

While it is true that many dogs are overweight and lacking in exercise there are people who go to other extremes and over exercise their dogs.
Exercise to me means giving a dog the opportunity to stretch its body while at the same time stimulating its mind. This means allowing a dog time to walk at its own pace stopping/sniffing /exploring, all very necessary for a well balanced calm and contented dog.

With regard to puppies, exercise is very import to a growing puppy as is stimulation of all the senses and exercise given little and often helps a puppy to develop. However a degree of common sense should be applied when exercising puppies. Anyone who has experience with puppies knows that when a puppy plays and tires it will stop and often curl up and go to sleep on the spot (including in a flower bed ) .When a puppy is attached to a lead it doesn't have this option and will continue to walk with the owner. Common sense tells me if a puppy is regularly expected to walk long distances on the end of a lead this is not good for the puppy and you risk damaging the growing joints.
Anyone who has had small children will know that when a child is tired of walking it will refuse to go any further and ask to be carried, a puppy on a lead is not able to do this.

Many of us here will remember the scandal of the young female gymnasts mainly from Soviet countries who developed severe injuries and 'burn out' as a result of too much intensive training at a young age. As a result of this in 1997 the International Olympic Committee ruled that 'To compete in the Games, gymnasts must turn 16 during the Olympic year'......
''Age restrictions are designed not so much to level the playing field in terms of skill and physical advantages, but to protect child athletes from injury and exploitation. Sports medicine physician, Dr. Jeanne Dopbrak has stated that "[a child athlete's] immature skeleton just isn't ready to handle the day-to-day stresses that will occur."Those stresses imposed on only partly developed muscular/skeletal system by gymnastics are almost certain to cause damage that would persist into adulthood''.
I don't think the problem of over excercise is exclusive to humans, I would say it applies to animals too though I can think of no other animal except the dog which is attached to a lead then expected to walk at the discretion of a human.

The fact that inappropriate exercise can cause damage to a dog and in particular to a growing puppy has been confirme to me during conversations with a number of vets.
Here is just one vet who agrees..

Exercise
Puppies are active and will seem never to tire – however we must not allow them to over
exercise on their growing bones and joints. We would advise that your puppy gets about 20
minutes of exercise twice daily until about 6-8 months old. This is particularly important in larger
breeds that can be predisposed to joint disease in later life. Large breed dogs should be restricted on
stairs and from jumping up as this puts stress on their developing hip joints. Small breed dogs
should not be allowed to jump down from furniture as they can fracture bones in their forelimbs
when they have open growth plates.
http://www.dogsey.com/goto.php?url=h...nformation.pdf
I also found this during a previous discussion on the topic of exercise, it relates to one condition in particular, osteochondritis dissecans which mainly affects larger breeds , unfortunatly the link to the source article no longer works..

Since trauma is a contributing factor to the development of OCD, it would be reasonable to monitor exercise in puppies, especially between the ages of 4-9 months. Activities such as excessive running and roughhousing with people or other dogs should be avoided. In addition, puppies shouldn't engage in intense activities that encourage abrupt, fast turns, quick stops, or jumping, especially jumping from heights. Of course puppies need exercise and should be allowed to be reasonably active, but they should also be watched carefully so that they don't do too much or do things that might cause injury
We have to remember many people with a variety of breeds come to this site seeking imformation. I think it is imprtant that they are made aware of the risk to their dogs caused by too much exercise of the wrong kind.
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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05-10-2009, 09:39 AM
Yes, with a young dog it is so important to make sure the exercise is not too much
I know several agility trainers who are having to retire their dogs at 6 or 7 and they are admiting it is because they overdid it when the dog was too young - what harm can teaching to dog weaves do?? upping the jumps - cos the dog jumps naturaly anyway

Its sad, young dogs dont always tell us when they have had enough (infact if they are v fit animals then they dont even know when they have had enough) and we cant see the dammage till later

I forgot to say - the couple I know with the overexercised collies - the dogs get injured quite a lot, running into things not paying attention cos they are too keyed up, often they are at the vets - the vet advises short lead walks for a week - they do that for about a day then have to run their dogs because they are bouncing off the walls - they were running their dogs with staples in the pads in two feet from v nasty injuries
Mia is on short lead walks this week - and is nice and chilled - we are learning some new tricks this week and that is enough for her
Annajayne
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05-10-2009, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Yes, with a young dog it is so important to make sure the exercise is not too much
I know several agility trainers who are having to retire their dogs at 6 or 7 and they are admiting it is because they overdid it when the dog was too young - what harm can teaching to dog weaves do?? upping the jumps - cos the dog jumps naturaly anyway

Its sad, young dogs dont always tell us when they have had enough (infact if they are v fit animals then they dont even know when they have had enough) and we cant see the dammage till later

I forgot to say - the couple I know with the overexercised collies - the dogs get injured quite a lot, running into things not paying attention cos they are too keyed up, often they are at the vets - the vet advises short lead walks for a week - they do that for about a day then have to run their dogs because they are bouncing off the walls - they were running their dogs with staples in the pads in two feet from v nasty injuries
Mia is on short lead walks this week - and is nice and chilled - we are learning some new tricks this week and that is enough for her
I agree with this. Eddie would run and run all day but I don't let him for obvious reasons. He has just been out in the garden with me 'helping' me sweep leaves. We threw the ball for a bit but mostly he 'helped'. I cannot walk him until this afternoon because of other commitments today so later we will do some 'sniffer' and hide and seek. Like I said, Eddie would run by a bike for miles and would probably like skating with CM but I know it would not be good for him. He also likes eating but I do not give him all the food he wants to eat, also for obvious reasons. What I mean is, what my dog can do and would like to do is not necessarily good for him. I don't just run him because he can and would like it and I don't just keep feeding him because he can eat it all and he likes it.
ClaireandDaisy
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05-10-2009, 11:48 AM
I think people need to be aware also that CM doesn`t actually `train` dogs. He tries to address problems, but doesn`t train. So none of his methods are suitable for teaching heelwork, sit, recall etc.
I see Scarter refers to these as `tricks. ` They are not tricks. They are the building blocks of your dog`s behaviour.
Down stay / distance control / off-lead work / agility / man-work etc. are all taught behaviours and cannot be taught by CM methods.
Many people don`t realise that you actually need to teach a dog to do these behaviours on cue - and that you need to teach them the cues. I so often see people shouting SETTLE DOWN or HANG ON! to a dog who hasn`t got a clue what is wanted. I wish all dogs came with a large label saying `This animal doesn`t Speak Your Language!`.
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