[QUOTE=Gnasher;2208250]No, my TENS machine was loaned to me by the Physiotherapy Department of our local hospital, I did not buy it from Boots.

Neither treats, toys nor a clicker "does it" for either of my dogs. They are far too intelligent [/QUOTE]

I have to pick up on this statement as it's one of the silliest things I've ever heard about the use of positive reinforcement (although I really hope that it was said tongue in cheek & you didn't really mean it!)

If anyone thinks that pos R is only for "dumb" animals then they really don't have a clue about the basic principles of operant conditioning & I'm not surprised that "treats, toys nor a clicker" didn't work!!

Unfortunately that statement says absolutely reams about the reasons for your failure as a dog trainer, but very little about the supposed "inteligence" of your dogs!

Gnasher, I think that some of the problem (or maybe a large part of it) is that you have a certain view of your dogs and certain beliefs that you hold dear.

Nothing wrong with that, until/unless it becomes an actual obstacle to their welfare.

I think what then happens, when others say that training is possible, (and you've maybe tried by yourself or with others who may not have been up to the job) is that you experience a kind of "cognitive dissonance" and really do find it hard to believe there is another way.

If I was in your situation with Ben (which I'm not, I know ) I'd train him to the best of my ability, making walks a part training exercies (which can be both fun and bonding) and then would use a long lead and harness whenever near any potential problems.

That way, he'd be pretty reliable but still safe under certain circumstances (i.e. if he showed predatory instincts) but still getting plenty of exercise and enjoyment, including off lead exercise

Wys
x

I think you've hit the nail on the head Wys with your post.

When someone has entrenched views on a subject, it's not easy to overturn those views because it effectively means admitting that they've been wrong all this time ~ never an easy concept to come to terms with. It's called a paradigm shift & means that they have to start to view the world in a new way. If someone believes that their dog won't respond to positive reinforcement & they think they've tried it every which way they can, then it's easy to see why they believe it won't work ~ because their dog is somehow unique or has superior intellingence .

Sadly that's not the case, which is why Gnasher needs to open her eyes & find some things that do act as positive reinforcers for her dog. Not only that but using pos R in the correct way, in the correct locations, circumstances etc could make a heck of a difference for Ben.

When I started doing my canine behaviour studies I was learning in a class with some extremely experienced dog trainers. Most of them had been working professionally with dogs of all types for years. They had attended course after course & were on first name terms with some of the most respected & well known dog trainers/behaviourists in the country. I found it completely daunting & felt totally out of my depth in comparison.

But within a few weeks these people were having to come to terms with learning completely new stuff about dog behaviour, learning theory, physiology, ethology etc. The effect that this had on them was profound. They had to struggle with some of things they'd done to dogs in the past, they had to realise that their actions had caused dogs to suffer in the past, that they had failed to understand the dogs they were responsible for. It was actually extremely hard to watch these lovely & caring people go through such a hard time. In some cases their actions had resulted in dogs being pts All of them coped with it in different ways ~ but after the heartache, the tears, the "what ifs" & "if onlys" etc, they started to realise that they now had to look forward, to see that this was still part of the learning "journey", that they could now use their newfound knowledge to really help dogs & to help other people understand their dogs. It was a massive paradigm shift for them all!

I was one of the lucky ones in that I didn't have that huge history of working with dogs & I didn't have a lot of experience. I was being taught as a "newbie" so I didn't have all that earlier baggage to unload first. But I really sympathised with the others in my class & I could only offer a shoulder to cry on at the time.

I hope that this will be the same for Gnasher & her husband. They clearly dote on their dogs & want to do their best for them. If they could just take that extra step to really see how taking the time & patience to help Ben would be so much better for him (& all their dogs) in the long run, then I would most definitely applaud them & hold them in the highest regard

[QUOTE=wilbar;2208638] It was tongue in cheek - heavy sigh !!

You could not be further from the truth about me!! I am sure you have got better things to do with your time, but if you searched Dogsey you would find plenty of posts from me stating I have been wrong, and left with egg on my face, etc. etc. I am the FIRST person ALWAYS to admit when they are in the wrong, and I have repeatedly said over the e collar issue that IF and WHEN things go belly up with Ben, I solemnly promise that I will state so in public on this forum.

You are right in saying that I have entrenched views on many things, I am a bit of a maverick, always have been, I don't follow the party line, I am prepared to argue my points with anyone, whether they are far more expert on a particular subject than I am. I don't see anything wrong in this.

But to suggest that I may be reluctant to admit when I'm wrong, no, no, no, that is not me, that is not my way at all.

Firstly, I work fulltime and although I work near home, I had a 60 mile round trip to and from OH's house to include in that until he moved in. I got up early, I went straight home with no detours for shopping (did food shopping at the weekends), I managed to give them two walks a day and training just fine. Allowing an hour and a half, maybe even 2 hours for travelling (the 30 mile trip usually only took me an hour though, unless the traffic was really bad), with a 9-5 job that's 7am-7pm. Get up at 6am, take the dogs out 10-20 minutes. Get in at 7pm, eat dinner, take the dogs out for 10-20 minutes. Voila. Unless you have crazy long work hours, I can't see how you couldn't cram in a couple of 10 minute recall training sessions into your day. You do not need to spend hours solid training the dog - infact, it's better to do multiple short sessions so the dog doesn't get bored.
And as someone said, your husband doesn't need to add time on to those 4 hours to train your dogs, he can train them DURING those 4 hours.
Sounds like you're just making poor excuses.

You go on and on about the intelligence of Ben. a) Intelligence is good for training! If he's as smart as you make him out to be then he should catch on to positive training very quickly, so one would have to assume that there's something going wrong in the training method, because with his intelligence it should be easy. Also b) if he's that smart and always 2 steps ahead of you, what happens when he figures out the e-collar? You continue to use the collar incorrectly, letting him run out of sight, what happens when he, with his intelligence beyond the average dog, realises the range of the collar/remote? You haven't trained this dog, you've gone for a short term fix and given how much you go on about his intelligence, surely it won't be long before he figures it out?

Wys, thanks for your patience and advice. It is good advice, and I am just so frustrated that I am unable to convince anybody what an intransigent problem we had with Ben. He is, admittedly, a watered down version of his father, but I will tell you a story about Hal.

Most people will have heard of Mary Rae. When Hal was about 6 months old, maybe a bit younger or older, but a youngster, Mary Rae visited our puppy training class in our local town. One of the trainers knows her, and she graced us one night with her presence and was presented with the "difficult" dogs to put them through their paces.

Hal, naturally, was one of these cases. When it came to his turn, he refused to obey her - I cannot remember now exactly what she did, it is over 13 years ago, but she tried presumably what were her tested methods, and she got nowhere. It ended up with Hal jumping up at her and pawing at her to get her to stop messing about with him. She handed him back to me with the words "Here, take him back, he is a lovely dog, I would love to have a dog like him but he would ruin my reputation!"

Now, whereas I am not a fan of Mary Rae particularly, no-one can deny she is incredibly good at what she does. Her words are telling, and very wise. If she had had a dog like Hal, he would indeed have ruined her reputation!! Ben is a watered down version of Hal, but maybe not, maybe he is just as bad, but because we learned from "the master" we are not so phased by him!! I don't know, but all I can say is I do ADORE my dogs, a soppy anthropomorphic thing to say I know, but I can't help it, I have always said I will never make a good dog trainer because I am too soft. OH is much better than me because he is more consistent, far less soppy but doesn't have the attraction for dogs that I do - dogs make a bee line for me, probably because they sense a soft touch when they see one!! I would do ANYTHING to be able to keep Ben living with us, happy and healthy and be able to be let off lead safely. I do not want to have to keep him on the lead just in case he takes it into his head to run across a field to see what is on the other side. He is incredibly nosy, he has to investigate everything and anything, and it is this wild side to his nature that needs to be not broken or tamed, but gentled, so that when we really NEED him to come to us, because for instance we have noticed that there are sheep in the next field to where we are walking, that he comes to us.

Now, to achieve this we have tried everything over the past few months, or at least OH has. During the 4 hours or so that he spends each day walking the dogs, of course he has tried everything to teach Ben a reasonable level of recall, from using titbits, to positive rewards, to calling on various behavourists and trainers for help and advice, talking to various local farmers, gamekeepers, gundog trainers, to try and find something that would work. I am sorry that he cannot spend any more time than he is. He really should of course in an ideal world take Ben out on his own after each walk, leaving Tai and Gucci behind, for an hour a day of training, but we have 2 problems with that. Tai is top dog, so would be less than pleased with Ben when he returned, and also Tai would destroy the conservatory if he were left on his own like that, even with Gucci present. This e collar was the only solution that we could think of. We had run out of time, we are now heavily into lambing round here, nuff said.

I wish I didn't have to go to work every day, because of course I could take Ben out on his own after each walk, leaving Tai and Gucci with OH, which would not cause a problem. It took quite a long time for the two big dogs to sort out who was boss, and if Mike were to spend any more time with Ben than Tai, there would be trouble with a capital T - for Ben!

I hope I have tried at least to help people understand why we had to try something that does not sit comfortably with us, but was a last resort.

I wish this was the case - but I expect the OH and Gnasher has already stated - she understand what she has done to the dog, she knows it caused pain, but she has achieved the result she wanted, so the methods appear not to matter, despite the fact they deliberately inflicted pain on the dog. .

No - you say a lead is cruel but and electric shock is not.
This was not a last resort. It was your choice.