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Chris
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10-11-2010, 09:30 AM
Rather than attacking the man, it would be far more productive to look at the method. I always think it’s a good thing to ‘walk a mile in the other’s shoes’ to assess how something might affect. Of course, we can’t assess how a dog truly feels, but we can start to get a ‘feel’ of what may be happening.

For example, and taking the view that the collars might cause discomfort rather than pain, imagine looking for something that you desperately have to find. You haven’t a clue where it is, just that it’s somewhere in the house.

Now imagine you have a helper who is going to guide you to where the item is. The helper doesn’t speak English so instead s/he has a gadget that taps you on the throat every time you take a step in the wrong direction, or you lower, rather than raise your arms.

You take a step, tap. Another step, tap. Your arms drop slightly, tap.

You become frustrated so start to try to ignore the taps. The taps get stronger and the more you try to ignore them, the stronger they get.

Eventually, you will find the item you are looking for, but what a journey! Of course, as you find one item, you need to start over again and find another – there goes that annoying tap.
rune
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10-11-2010, 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
Rather than attacking the man, it would be far more productive to look at the method. I always think it’s a good thing to ‘walk a mile in the other’s shoes’ to assess how something might affect. Of course, we can’t assess how a dog truly feels, but we can start to get a ‘feel’ of what may be happening.

For example, and taking the view that the collars might cause discomfort rather than pain, imagine looking for something that you desperately have to find. You haven’t a clue where it is, just that it’s somewhere in the house.

Now imagine you have a helper who is going to guide you to where the item is. The helper doesn’t speak English so instead s/he has a gadget that taps you on the throat every time you take a step in the wrong direction, or you lower, rather than raise your arms.

You take a step, tap. Another step, tap. Your arms drop slightly, tap.

You become frustrated so start to try to ignore the taps. The taps get stronger and the more you try to ignore them, the stronger they get.

Eventually, you will find the item you are looking for, but what a journey! Of course, as you find one item, you need to start over again and find another – there goes that annoying tap.
Do you think it might be a more pleasant experience if instead of a shock (not an annoying tap---lets get it right), you were given a treat every time you went in the right direction?

I have yet to find any e collar trainer that allows people to play the training game using a collar. Plenty of clicker trainers or reward based trainers play it.

I really hate the way the shock is called everything except a shock! One person even said it wasn't an electric shock because batteries were used not electricity-----DUH!

rune
Chris
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10-11-2010, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I really hate the way the shock is called everything except a shock! One person even said it wasn't an electric shock because batteries were used not electricity-----DUH!

rune
I chose my words carefully, Rune . Advocates of the collar always insist that the things cause minor discomfort, not pain. Personally, I would very much doubt that, but I chose my words to give the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless, there are many things that start as minor irritations and end in misery
SLB
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10-11-2010, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Do you think it might be a more pleasant experience if instead of a shock (not an annoying tap---lets get it right), you were given a treat every time you went in the right direction?

I have yet to find any e collar trainer that allows people to play the training game using a collar. Plenty of clicker trainers or reward based trainers play it.

I really hate the way the shock is called everything except a shock! One person even said it wasn't an electric shock because batteries were used not electricity-----DUH!

rune
Good point Rune.

And hasnt it been proven that animals learn better through positive association - dolphins dont get shocked for not doing as the trainer wants them too.

In India there are Bears that are been beaten so they dance - the e- collar (e which stands for electronic, which in turn is a shock) does the same - it just looks more humane as we cant physically see someone beat the animal - as I have said before - legal abuse.

We're not attacking Adam, more his method and ways of seeing the quick fix, money side to things.
Elaine
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10-11-2010, 09:55 AM
I've been reading this with interest.

I CANNOT!!!!! understand why ANYONE!!! would want to subject their dog to this barbaric piece of equipment!!!!

Lets get it right, IT GIVES THE DOG AN ELECTRIC SHOCK!!!!

what ever anyone wants to call it!!!! it is an ELECTRIC SHOCK!!!!!!

The sooner they are banned the better, cant come soon enough for me!!!!

( yes I have had to deal with a dog who was subjected to this barbaric torture!!!)
rune
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10-11-2010, 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
I chose my words carefully, Rune . Advocates of the collar always insist that the things cause minor discomfort, not pain. Personally, I would very much doubt that, but I chose my words to give the benefit of the doubt.

Regardless, there are many things that start as minor irritations and end in misery


Looking at the videos that were posted that wasn't a reaction to a minor irritation that the terrier was showing.

rune
Delos
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10-11-2010, 10:05 AM
One of the problems I see is the proponents of e-collars such as Adam always state they use other training methods and only use these collars in specific circumstances. If though you look at Adams posts here and on other forums for 99% of problems his first suggestion is an e collar. So in reality it's not being used in specific circumstances but in all circumstances. It seems to be poor trainers that use these those after a quick fix. I'm afraid dog training isn't quick it can take time and work.

I always think the term e collars is a wee bit to fluffy and they should be marketed as what they are Electric Shock Collars.
Chris
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10-11-2010, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Looking at the videos that were posted that wasn't a reaction to a minor irritation that the terrier was showing.

rune
I'd have said the same, but, who knows, after days/weeks of having a collar used
Meg
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10-11-2010, 10:36 AM
Rather than attacking the man, it would be far more productive to look at the method
Hi Brierley I may be wrong but I don't think you have been around the site very frequently, the method has been looked at and discussed pretty throughly in numerous previous threads with alternative methods suggested.

Adam takes every opportunity to promote the use of e collars whatever the problem described.

I believe almost everyone who posts on this site in response to a training or behaviour query (incuding dog trainers) does so in order to help the questioner solve the problem with the best interests of the dog in mind, not to promote some equipment that may offer a quick fix for financial gain .
If a person has little or no empathy with animals (and to me this incudes those who don't think twice about causing an animal discomfort) and chooses dog trainer as a means to make a living in my opinion they are in the wrong job and would be better off as a sales person for inanimate objects.

By all means discuss the method again and I will read the discussion with interest , but don't anyone expect to change the opinion of someone who is not actually looking for the best least harmfull methods to train a dog, instead they use a device because it is a quick and easy method regardless of the long term consequences.

Those trainers who promote the use of e collars do a disservice to the many wonderful trainers who take time and patience to train dogs. They also give owners who may have already failed their dogs by not giving them the correct attention the impression that there are 'harmless' quick fix solutions for every problem .
Emma
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10-11-2010, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
Rather than attacking the man, it would be far more productive to look at the method. I always think it’s a good thing to ‘walk a mile in the other’s shoes’ to assess how something might affect. Of course, we can’t assess how a dog truly feels, but we can start to get a ‘feel’ of what may be happening.

For example, and taking the view that the collars might cause discomfort rather than pain, imagine looking for something that you desperately have to find. You haven’t a clue where it is, just that it’s somewhere in the house.

Now imagine you have a helper who is going to guide you to where the item is. The helper doesn’t speak English so instead s/he has a gadget that taps you on the throat every time you take a step in the wrong direction, or you lower, rather than raise your arms.

You take a step, tap. Another step, tap. Your arms drop slightly, tap.

You become frustrated so start to try to ignore the taps. The taps get stronger and the more you try to ignore them, the stronger they get.

Eventually, you will find the item you are looking for, but what a journey! Of course, as you find one item, you need to start over again and find another – there goes that annoying tap.
Adam has been through this extensively on other threads and to all accounts has said it is quick, effective, helps when clients wanting quick results. He has proposed that another dog was at risk of pts due to chasing sheep (??not sure if that is the right animal), he was unable to provide any studies, or findings that says e-collars are safe other than e-collar manufacturers or distributors, even though he has studied animal behaviour (according to him).
He has said that they are not transmitting pain, and says it is a knee jerk reaction that has caused Wales to ban e-collars, when that is far from the truth.
I guess people are just frustrated and get no real answers from him, he would be a good politician he can talk about things but omit answers that would result in e-collars being looked at in a negative light.
It has been his first and last resort to dogs with problems, it is quite scary how Adam comes across with training dogs and has advised people to use e-collars when asking about correcting their dogs problems.
I would not walk in his shoes our paths are different, I have had a few similar experiences as Adam and the dogs he has encountered, I have never needed to use and e-collar to date and will not use one in the future.
Your analogy seems a bit weird, a tap is not painful, and nor is it correcting a problem, I would think this a better thought.......... put an e-collar on someone, give someone else the control, every time they do a behaviour you don't want the other person presses the button, see if that does not cause any pain.
So rather than thinking everyone is attacking him, maybe people are getting frustrated.
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