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Moobli
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17-09-2011, 09:57 AM

WT -v- Schutzhund

I am planning on getting a working line GSD pup next year and am deciding what work to do with him as well as the tracking/scent working and obedience I can do at home.

I do really fancy Schutzhund, but as the nearest club (2 hours drive) only trains at weekends, and the local (30 mins drive) Working Trials club trains on a Friday morning, I think I will probably go down the WT route, as I don't think it would be fair to my family to disappear every weekend with my dogs (as much as I might like to ).

So for those of you that have done both, or train in both, what are the major differences between the sports and which do YOU find most fulfilling/interesting and which does your dog seem to enjoy the most (if he/she does actually have a preference )?

My hubby is quite handy and so I think he will also be able to build me some of the agility equipment used in WT and then I can also practice at home.
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JoedeeUK
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17-09-2011, 10:42 AM
WT pros:

Variations in certain parts of the trials(similar to the variations allowed in Obedience)
Judges have to have competed before judging
No protection work until PD(Dogs have to be TD qualified)
Pre CD test(non qualifying)

WT cons:

Scale jump
Lack of "official"judge training(apart from the compulsory KC Judges test(based on the knowledge of rules)
Out of sight stays
Every track will be different so unknown if dog is on the track

VPG pros:
Every test will be identical
A frame instead of scale
Down stay done in sight
Additional "pre"VPG test
All judges are fully trained & qualified(all have to pass examinations that show knowledge of rules & the tests)

VPG cons:
Protection work from VPG I test
All tests are identical
Down stay done whilst another dog working & during gun test
Gun test from VPG I

The pros & cons overlap depending on what you prefer your tests & exercises to be.

Having done both I would opt for the VPG, but possibly start with the Introductory stake as a tester.

You might find help closer to you for VPG on an informal basis if you contact your nearest club
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ClaireandDaisy
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17-09-2011, 12:11 PM
Would it not be an idea to wait and see what the dog has the greatest aptitude / enthusiasm for?
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Moobli
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17-09-2011, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
WT pros:

Variations in certain parts of the trials(similar to the variations allowed in Obedience)
Judges have to have competed before judging
No protection work until PD(Dogs have to be TD qualified)
Pre CD test(non qualifying)

WT cons:

Scale jump
Lack of "official"judge training(apart from the compulsory KC Judges test(based on the knowledge of rules)
Out of sight stays
Every track will be different so unknown if dog is on the track

VPG pros:
Every test will be identical
A frame instead of scale
Down stay done in sight
Additional "pre"VPG test
All judges are fully trained & qualified(all have to pass examinations that show knowledge of rules & the tests)

VPG cons:
Protection work from VPG I test
All tests are identical
Down stay done whilst another dog working & during gun test
Gun test from VPG I

The pros & cons overlap depending on what you prefer your tests & exercises to be.

Having done both I would opt for the VPG, but possibly start with the Introductory stake as a tester.

You might find help closer to you for VPG on an informal
basis if you contact your nearest club
Thanks for all that info Dyane. I have to confess the long jump and scale dog worry me slightly in WT, but we will just have to see how we get on.

I think just from my limited experience with being a spectator at both I would prefer Schutzhund - however, parts of the WT training appeal more to me - such as the tracking.

Loads of time to see anyway.
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Moobli
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17-09-2011, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Would it not be an idea to wait and see what the dog has the greatest aptitude / enthusiasm for?
Yes, to a degree - and I would only continue to train if the dog were enjoying himself too. However, I think I will be limited in the fact that the Schutz training is at a weekend and WT is more accessible in both location and days that training is on. However, as I said, if the dog didn't enjoy the training we would stop.

Hubby said he would have a go at helping me train him to herd, but I haven't really made my mind up about that one, as I prefer my GSD to ignore sheep. Having said that, we now have Yogi able to drive sheep away (without chasing and under control ) and then return on command, so we will see.
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JoedeeUK
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17-09-2011, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
....

Hubby said he would have a go at helping me train him to herd, but I haven't really made my mind up about that one, as I prefer my GSD to ignore sheep. Having said that, we now have Yogi able to drive sheep away (without chasing and under control ) and then return on command, so we will see.
Don't forget that GSDs don't work sheep like BCs & also the breed of sheep involved

There is tracking in VPG from VPG I BTW
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Moobli
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17-09-2011, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
Don't forget that GSDs don't work sheep like BCs & also the breed of sheep involved

There is tracking in VPG from VPG I BTW
Yep, well aware that in Germany GSDs don't herd like BCs - and also they aren't used on wild sheep like ours So that is also a reason to can that idea.

I think I am put off the really precise footstep tracking in VPG, whereas WT tracking just seems to make more sense to me (if that makes sense!). It seems a more natural way to track - say, if you were after a criminal or whatever. Not that I would be, but you know what I mean
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smokeybear
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17-09-2011, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
WT pros:

Variations in certain parts of the trials(similar to the variations allowed in Obedience)

In articles on track and square, track design, sendaway, speak, gun, heelwork, stays.

Judges have to have competed before judging

Not only have competed but have qualified a dog in a stake they are to judge (or higher in Championship)

No protection work until PD(Dogs have to be TD qualified)

Incorrect, your dog only needs to have a WD qualifiecation prior to competing in PD.

Pre CD test(non qualifying)

WT cons:

Scale jump
Lack of "official"judge training(apart from the compulsory KC Judges test(based on the knowledge of rules)

Incorrect there is also the practical test and an assessment of your judging before judging ticket.

Out of sight stays

Every track will be different so unknown if dog is on the track

VPG pros:
Every test will be identical
A frame instead of scale
Down stay done in sight
Additional "pre"VPG test
All judges are fully trained & qualified(all have to pass examinations that show knowledge of rules & the tests)

VPG cons:
Protection work from VPG I test
All tests are identical
Down stay done whilst another dog working & during gun test
Gun test from VPG I

The pros & cons overlap depending on what you prefer your tests & exercises to be.

Having done both I would opt for the VPG, but possibly start with the Introductory stake as a tester.

You might find help closer to you for VPG on an informal basis if you contact your nearest club

I do not personally think of them as pros and cons, I have been lucky enough to compete at the highest level in the UK in both sports, competing in both the GSDL Nationals and the KCCs (Kennel Club Championships) I enjoy both for different reasons.
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smokeybear
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17-09-2011, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
I am planning on getting a working line GSD pup next year and am deciding what work to do with him as well as the tracking/scent working and obedience I can do at home.

I do really fancy Schutzhund, but as the nearest club (2 hours drive) only trains at weekends, and the local (30 mins drive) Working Trials club trains on a Friday morning, I think I will probably go down the WT route, as I don't think it would be fair to my family to disappear every weekend with my dogs (as much as I might like to ).

So for those of you that have done both, or train in both, what are the major differences between the sports and which do YOU find most fulfilling/interesting and which does your dog seem to enjoy the most (if he/she does actually have a preference )?

My hubby is quite handy and so I think he will also be able to build me some of the agility equipment used in WT and then I can also practice at home.
The main differences in nosework are as follows:

The style of tracking is paramount in Schutzhund, it has to be consistent in speed around all corners and legs. Otherwise the aim for both is the same to get round a track as accurately as possible with as few deviations/casts as you can.

The other difference in nosework is that you can qualify the tracking in Schutzhund without recovering any articles, that is not possible in WT. In addition in Schutzhund 3 you will have a maximum of 5 legs, in WT you can have up to 30!

There is no search square in Schutzhund.

The main differences in the agility section is that the dog has to retrieve over a 1m hurdle in Schutzhund and over an A frame.

In WT the dog has to negotiate a 6ft scale, maintain a nominated position and return, a 3ft hurdle and 9ft long jump.

The main differences in Obedience is that heelwork must be very stylised and tight in Schutzhund, in WT it is supposed to be in a “natural” manner, both have slow, medium and fast pace.

The sendaway is very short in Schutzhund and there is no redirect in any of the stakes. There is no speak in the obedience section in Schutzhund.

The stays have already been mentioned as have the gun tests etc.

PD is an optional stake in Working Trials.

Ps If you are worried about the jumps in WT then I would suggest another sport.

I do not know of any dog that has been injured on the jumps in WT and of course those of us that compete in WT would not risk our dogs on the jumps if we thought it was dangerous

If you need any more info let me know.

My dogs have all loved the tracking and the jumps, I would not say obedience was my Weims strongest points though!

My GSD is the only who loved the bitework.

I love Schutzhund for the precision (I find it very similar to dressage) I love WT for the variety.
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nickmcmechan
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18-09-2011, 10:34 AM
out of interest SB, do you have dogs that you have comnpeted in both sports or do you use one dog for one and another dog for the other?
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