ALL breed standards as far as I am aware still state "two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum" Its the showing rules that have changed not the breed standards.
Dawn.

Thank you .... it was particularly emotional as he won the same class the year before as an entire, and this was to be his last show - more of an exhibition round, I thought. He powered around the ring and thoroughly enjoyed himself. I was seriously out of breath
He is now officially retired as he has further health problems but it was certainly a day to remember!

Just to clarify this. KC Breed standards quote this note:

"Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum"

And the Kennel Club quote this

Prior to exhibition, permission must be sought from the General Committee of the Kennel Club to exhibit any dog which has undergone an operation to alter its natural conformation. Dogs which have been spayed or castrated are permitted to be exhibited at Kennel Club licensed events. However, the owner of the dog must inform the Kennel Club, prior to exhibition, of the date of the operation, the name of the veterinary surgeon and the practice where the operation was carried out.

Won't add to this as there is already a lengthy post on here regarding this.

Can I just clarify here as well. My bitch was spayed because I wanted her to be and didn't want to breed from her or have any accidents as I have entire males in the house. No medical condition was outstanding but the KC were fine. Just had to note which vet did the operation.

Hi megan57collies - just to say I was actually referrring to dogs (male) not bitches!

Basically IMO a male should have two fully descended testicles prior to being neutered and that the neutering ideally should be for medical reasons in order for them not to be marked down.

There is a lot of variation on judges' opinion on this and some will automatically place neutered dogs last in a class. It is, as others have pointed out, a fault as our standards presently stand and should be considered along with all other faults.

The reason a dog is neutered shouldn't have any bearing on its placing ..... a dog neutered because of owner's convenience shouldn't be considered any less than one neutered for medical reasons as you are not judging ethics in the showring.

But what is important is that the dog was entire and normal before neutering and most exhibitors, in my experience, carry a letter from their veterinary practice to confirm this.

My personal stance on this is that I would, and have, placed neutered dogs at championship level and probably up to Crufts qualifying placings if very good specimens (with appropriate letter) in other respects. I've never been faced with the situation of awarding top honours to a neutered male but I think I'd struggle to award a ticket or res CC or Open BIS.

I was clarifying that whether you have a dog or bitch done it doesn't have to be for a medical condition to be passed at the KC.

I appreciate your opinion. But I was clarifying the KC rules on these things, which is not an opinion but the rules that are laid out by the Kennel Club which govern the shows at the end of the day. When it comes to judging, I would judge by these rules and not put a neutered dog down the placings, but judge it against the breed standard as required. As the kennel club allow neutered dogs to be shown then I would judge them the same as an entire dog. If they were the best in the class then they would get the red rossette. I think exhibitors should not be put down for taking the decision to neuter their dog for medical reasons of not.
As i've said before, I wish that the breed standards were updated to reflect this as the KC say one thing, but the BS are unclear.

Ok let me clarify - a dog should have two fully descended testicles prior to neutering. You are right - the medical reasons should not be relevant!

I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the two testicles before neutering, I agree that point, I'm saying I disagree that the dog should only be neutered for medical reasons. I appreciate it's your opinion which I respect but I do feel it's important to put the fact according to the Kennel club.

The KC allows neutered dogs to be shown whether they were neutered for medical reasons or by preference. Personal opinions don't come into it. All judges should judge honestly and by this rule.

M57C - I think I just agreed on that point? I'm not very good at wording things and was pointing out really that they should not be entered if neutered cos they only had one! sorry for getting this in a muddle! (just edited cos still didn't make sense!)