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Dibbythedog
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10-04-2015, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by lovemybull View Post
Just a few random thoughts...perhaps a private trainer even just for a few months? Something a good trainer does is give the owner confidence and advice as to the best way to handle their pup. I had obedience classes with Callie and it made a big difference.

Something else is you have to let go some of that "He's a rescue" mentality. Because he possibly had a rough beginning doesn't mean letting him hold on to bad behavior now. I know it's hard though. Our Sophie was a basket case from the beginning. She had a few stable years but as she's gotten older she's regressed.
.
I also think it would be a good idea if the Op consulted a behaviourist if they are able to find an experienced qualified
one and not a Cesar Millan wannabe.

I dont think the Op is ignoring the aggression or intends to let him hold on to "bad" behaviour, she wants to know the best way to deal with it.
One way is to not put him in a situation where he will react aggressively until he is in a more stable emotional state and less reactive so that he doesnt feel the need to be defensive and aggressive. I would say that's controlling the situation , i wouldn't say doing that lets him hold on to bad behaviour.
When he is in a calmer more balanced state , I think its called emotional equilibrium , he'll be more able to cope with being desensitised to having his collar held and his paws wiped etc.
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Gnasher
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11-04-2015, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Strangechilde View Post
Hey Awaiting Abyss, welcome!

Gnasher has a lot of experience and is chock full of good advice. Same with Brenda and so many on here. You've already had some excellent advice and I agree wholeheartedly.

One of the things you have to remember about wolfdogs is (cue drum roll!) they're closer to wolves than regular domestic dogs. There is quite a big difference, but it is not where a lot of people say it is: that the wolf is a vicious slavering beast while the dog is a wilting daisy of delectable slavery. Neither thing is true.

Every single dog is different, and every single wolf is different, and the best thing you can do right off the bat is to educate yourself. Read up, talk to your vets, find a good puppy class that'll take a wolf puppy (some won't) and make absolutely sure that you are comfortable with the training methods before you even start. Any good class will let you sit in and watch before you sign up. Don't let anyone bully you into anything you don't feel comfortable with. Seriously, don't-- they'll say it's for your own good, but it's not.

Wolfdogs mature far earlier than domestic dogs-- their trust window closes early, but it doesn't mean you can't win it back. Your little guy has suffered, clearly. You will need to balance his training, his food aggression, and his learning to live with you all together. It's not going to be easy but it will pay off!

He's been starved: no puppy is bony, so food has been a problem for him. You can make it an opportunity for you. Give him food. Acknowledge him, acknowledge the food, acknowledge that he is eating the food-- and then show absolutely no further interest. By doing so, you're effectively saying 'Yep, that's food, and it's all yours. I don't care about it one whit.' Same with treats: you can toss them down. When you don't care about them, there's no reason to guard them. This will take time, but it might just work.

Collars: Taji, our rescue Akita, has had serious issues with collars. I suspect he has been choked and grabbed. Even with spitz type dogs and wolfdogs without a history of abuse, you'll probably see a reluctance at being grabbed by a collar. I would suggest that you never do it. Gently guiding with a flat hand works fine, with a dog who trusts you.

And that comes on to Gnasher's point: trust. Wolfdogs are ferociously intelligent (and I mean that in the sense that their intelligence rips apart everything) and they will not respect a leader whom they cannot trust. This goes both ways. You'll need to respect your dog and his abilities, and demonstrate your own qualifications as a decent leader of your group.

It sounds daunting, but don't be offput!
I totally agree Strangechilde with everything you say, and thank you for your nice comments. It is absolutely vital with a wolf cross to be bloody, bold and resolute - no half measures. No timorous approach, flinching or jumping, it is terribly hard and I have been guilty of all 3 of these with Ben. He really was a very scarey animal indeed when we first took him on. You are so right about the grabbing of the collar, this is a no no even now with our Ben. If we need to take him by the collar we have to make sure we do it firmly but openly so that he can clearly see the hand coming.

You absolutely HAVE to be the leader (I prefer to use the word alpha, but for the sake of peace I shall say leader!). No wolfdog will be happy if he thinks he cannot trust you, cannot rely on you to protect him in every sense of the word. This is true of all dogs, but with wolf crosses even more so. This is why so many end up in rescue ... most people just cannot give them what they truly need ... company being the most important. You really do need to think outside of the box with these dogs, roll with the punches, ignore what is not important. So Ben doesn't always lie down the instant I ask him to ... so what, as long as he is under control and not leaping around, so what? So what if he sits, but will not lie down? Hal, his father was notorious for this, he hated to lie down. This is rolling with the punches ... ignoring the trivia and dealing correctly with the important things.
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Gnasher
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11-04-2015, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
I also think it would be a good idea if the Op consulted a behaviourist if they are able to find an experienced qualified
one and not a Cesar Millan wannabe.

I dont think the Op is ignoring the aggression or intends to let him hold on to "bad" behaviour, she wants to know the best way to deal with it.
One way is to not put him in a situation where he will react aggressively until he is in a more stable emotional state and less reactive so that he doesnt feel the need to be defensive and aggressive. I would say that's controlling the situation , i wouldn't say doing that lets him hold on to bad behaviour.
When he is in a calmer more balanced state , I think its called emotional equilibrium , he'll be more able to cope with being desensitised to having his collar held and his paws wiped etc.
Nice post Dibby. It is very important to be able to reward good behaviour ... you don't want to be in the position where you have to respond negatively to bad behaviour. So as you say, controlling the situation such that it can be all positive praise and no negative responses.
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SarahJade
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11-04-2015, 08:20 PM
A lot of people have problems with others mentioning alpha or pack leader etc because for so long that basically meant staring the dog down, smacking the dog, scruffing the dog, yelling at the dog, controlling the dogs access to anything and everything.
I believe a true alpha or leader in any circumstance is a calm person who can be trusted to deal with the scary stuff and protect you. All of the above is bullying and will only cause further problems, now or further down the line.

Working in a consistent and calm manner is alway needed when working with anyone who is emotionally and mentally unbalanced. Poor chap, he needs lots of help but he needs you and your husband to respect his boundaries until he can trust you. Then and only then will you able to teach him that these things aren't actually scary and are a good thing. Depending on his personality and the bond you develop you might be able to eventually teach him to lift his feet while you clean them and cut his nails, but also prepare yourself that you may never be able to touch his feet without him being stressed/nervous and needing to be muzzled. In time you will work it all out.
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Awaiting Abyss
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12-04-2015, 03:11 AM
He recognizes me as leader. He lowers his ears when he looks my way, and he does show me his belly. He also licks my chin.
I do have concerns about when he matures at 2 to 3 years. Wolves mature slower than dogs, so at 2 to 3 years they hit "puberty" and get a personality change.

He can go to a puppy class even though he's not a puppy? I'm not sure how that would work out since wolfdogs require different training methods.
I would get a personal trainer to help, but I do not know of any near South Carolina that has knowledge of high contents.
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lovemybull
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12-04-2015, 03:51 AM
I guess what everyone else is saying. I agree...with any of the stronger breeds wolf mix or otherwise...the owner has to have the right mindset. I am a very soft spoken person. But I have also been through a lot...With the dogs I can project the persona of " I am the ****ing almighty food giver person and you will listen to me!". They know that pleasing me will make treats rain from the sky plus tushie rubs and any number of good things. BUT if Mami is NOT pleased...well they don't want to go there. It's an illusion but it works for us...
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Gnasher
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12-04-2015, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss View Post
He recognizes me as leader. He lowers his ears when he looks my way, and he does show me his belly. He also licks my chin.
I do have concerns about when he matures at 2 to 3 years. Wolves mature slower than dogs, so at 2 to 3 years they hit "puberty" and get a personality change.

He can go to a puppy class even though he's not a puppy? I'm not sure how that would work out since wolfdogs require different training methods.
I would get a personal trainer to help, but I do not know of any near South Carolina that has knowledge of high contents.
This is very good AA. You have overcome the first hurdle - he is respecting you and telling you that he trusts you. You are right that wolves mature more slowly, but he is not a wolf, he is a wolf cross. Personally I would think of him as dog first, wolf second. For sure his wolfy traits will be strong, but then all dogs have wolfy traits inherited from their ancestors.

I do not think that wolf crosses need different training methods - they just need total 100% consistency more than an "ordinary" dog. With a wolf cross, any sign of slippage - to give an example, let us say that you do not want him to come up on to your furniture. You enforce this rule consistently - but then one evening, he is looking at you so pleadingly - it is cold, so you allow him "just this once" to come up onto the sofa. Big mistake ... there is no "just this once" with a wolf cross! This is what I mean by 100% consistency. So long as the training methods are assertive but gentle, firm but fair, it really does not matter what methods are used ... reward-based training with food, reward-based training just with praise or a favourite toy, clicker training, whatever, just be 100% consistent and your wolfie boy will come on a treat.

You are so lucky - I envy you your task! You have a window of opportunity here of at least 1 year to turn this chappie around and have yourself the most wonderful companion like my Hal was, Ben's father. Hal was an F4, so less wolfy than your boy I would say, but we were lucky enough to have him as a pup at 8 weeks so had no real issues with him. His son, Ben, we did not rescue until he was 5 and immense harm and damage had been done to him by thoughtless people. It has taken us 4 years to get him to the stage we are at now, but his dog aggression is never going to improve over and above where we are at now. All we can is roll with the punches and understand why he is so, and keep him under control at all times especially when off the lead.

So be calm, consistent, loving but most importantly assertive - this dog needs to know that you are the boss, alpha female, in order for him to feel relaxed and safe. With a wolf cross in particular this is absolutely essential.

I am so excited for you ... what a time you have got ahead with this magnificent creature. You are a very, very lucky lady indeed!
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Gnasher
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12-04-2015, 09:07 AM
Originally Posted by SarahJade View Post
A lot of people have problems with others mentioning alpha or pack leader etc because for so long that basically meant staring the dog down, smacking the dog, scruffing the dog, yelling at the dog, controlling the dogs access to anything and everything.
I believe a true alpha or leader in any circumstance is a calm person who can be trusted to deal with the scary stuff and protect you. All of the above is bullying and will only cause further problems, now or further down the line.

Working in a consistent and calm manner is alway needed when working with anyone who is emotionally and mentally unbalanced. Poor chap, he needs lots of help but he needs you and your husband to respect his boundaries until he can trust you. Then and only then will you able to teach him that these things aren't actually scary and are a good thing. Depending on his personality and the bond you develop you might be able to eventually teach him to lift his feet while you clean them and cut his nails, but also prepare yourself that you may never be able to touch his feet without him being stressed/nervous and needing to be muzzled. In time you will work it all out.
I totally agree SarahJade, but I did not what to turn this thread into another Gnasher-Basher fiasco, so I avoided using the word! You will get away with it!!

Your advice and prognosis is extremely sensible and I agree with everything you say. There is absolutely no harm whatsoever in muzzling the dog - Ben actually enjoys being muzzled when we have to groom his tail, or do something unpleasant to him, because it means he can relax, it takes away the pressure from him being forced into a position where he could turn on us - he would never bite, but he does turn and air snap or yowl, and it is unnerving! Far better to muzzle a dog, and then everyone can relax. As soon as the muzzle comes off, huge praise, hugs and a titbit can be administered!
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Gnasher
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12-04-2015, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by lovemybull View Post
I guess what everyone else is saying. I agree...with any of the stronger breeds wolf mix or otherwise...the owner has to have the right mindset. I am a very soft spoken person. But I have also been through a lot...With the dogs I can project the persona of " I am the ****ing almighty food giver person and you will listen to me!". They know that pleasing me will make treats rain from the sky plus tushie rubs and any number of good things. BUT if Mami is NOT pleased...well they don't want to go there. It's an illusion but it works for us...
Good post! I am reminded of a little lady who works in our local pub - she is knee high to a grasshopper and probably a size 4, weighing in at around 7 stone. She is magnificent with dogs ... she is terribly softly spoken to, and never raises her voice. She just has presence, and "bollocks" and sheer guts to never be phased. She is also very horsy, and rides impossible animals that I would not even sit on, let alone take out for a hack, but she controls these beasts and very rarely gets thrown. She is the perfect example of what you describe!

Ben hates a raised voice ... I am a very large, loud, noisy person and I struggle not to shout - like yesterday when we were walking down our lane, and Harvey the flat coated retriever was approaching with his owner. I remained calm, didn't look at Ben or Harvey, just made Ben sit down with a car between us and Harvey. All was well until Harvey had passed us, and then Ben kicked off and it was all I could do to hold him - with a harness and a slip lead! My mistake ... I had said in a rather too assertive voice "walk on Ben!" instead of praising him first for his good behaviour. Totally my fault.
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Strangechilde
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12-04-2015, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Awaiting Abyss View Post
He recognizes me as leader. He lowers his ears when he looks my way, and he does show me his belly. He also licks my chin.
I do have concerns about when he matures at 2 to 3 years. Wolves mature slower than dogs, so at 2 to 3 years they hit "puberty" and get a personality change.

He can go to a puppy class even though he's not a puppy? I'm not sure how that would work out since wolfdogs require different training methods.
I would get a personal trainer to help, but I do not know of any near South Carolina that has knowledge of high contents.
Yes! A lot of puppy classes will accept older dogs, so long as they're all up to date with vaccinations. Puppy classes can be great for rescue dogs who need a bit of socialisation, since they are (well, they certainly should be) safe, controlled environments that are generally fun to be in. Poor Taji had been through three sets of owners and spent seven months (!!!) in kennels before we got him at 18 months old-- he had some serious behaviour issues, but he absolutely loved puppy classes and even won a prize for stellar behaviour. Look for ones that only use positive training methods. I have heard some real horror stories about people who run classes and call themselves professionals who think yanking, choking and punishing are all okay things to do to dogs, so make sure you know what you're getting into, no matter how many letters they may have after their name. Your best bet is probably word of mouth recommendations. Local dog walkers can be amazing sources of information, and your vet may be able to recommend a class. Contact the class and explain your situation. As long as the class is 100% positive, you should be able to adapt training methods for your guy.

I agree completely with what SarahJade and lovemybull say about being the alpha/pack leader/whatever you want to call it. Something I've said before, and I stick by it, is that being a good alpha involves making beta a desirable position. A dog who follows you because you are genuinely worth following is going to be your friend for life, your valuable, valued companion-- not your browbeaten slave. And who wouldn't want to follow you? Just look at you! You're amazing! You have thumbs! You can open cans! You can work the oven and make that delectable roast butternut squash he loves so much! You know where all the most fun places are! So what if you won't let him eat poop... there's probably a reason for that.

Yeah, you can expect a bit of a glitch when he hits adolescence... but if by that time you have built a strong relationship based on trust and love, you'll get through it.

A couple of books I have found very helpful are The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell (actually, I'd recommend reading anything by her; you can start on the Reading Room on her website. Google her: she's the first hit) and If a Dog's Prayers were Answered, Bones would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier. She has some very sensible things to say about aggression, real and as perceived, and lots of sensible things to say about dogs and the ways we treat them. Honestly I should just buy these books in bulk to give away... Another good one is The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. These are all mainly focused on regular dogs, but there is a lot in them you'll be able to apply to your wolfy boy. Hope that helps!
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