Well at least we are now talking about shock, pain and burn. Not buzz, stim or any other euphemisms which, to my mind, are used by people who probably in truth feel a bit guilty about using ELECTRIC SHOCK COLLARS so need to make them sound a little nicer and less brutal.

Still can't get my head around the thought of any dog for whom nothing else on earth will work to make them behave, so bad that the only thing that will work is a harmless little 'buzz' from a 'stim collar' - yeah right.

And the horrifying examples given in the posts above about the misuse of these things should be enough on their own to get them banned from sale. Because if you can't buy them you can't use them - and then no danger of misusing them. Anyone who thinks they are never misused should just google for images for them and see the HORRIFYING proof of the damage that has been done to dogs by them.

(Though I suppose anyone who is totally convinced that the only way they could ever train their dog is by electrically shocking it and who couldn't buy a shock collar might resort to using something like a cattle prod instead?)

Going back to just before Wales banned these collars someone tried a collar on himself with someone else pressing the button. At first he thought it fun, as it was turned up gradually he could feel it but still thought it fun. Then it got high, if I remember right be nearly fell off his seat, it wasn't fun any more, it hurt and he was shocked. He couldn't get it off fast enough. Until the last shock he didn't see a problem with them, he quickly changed his mind.

OK how about people who use them have to wear a collar too and every time they zap their dog they get zapped too and if it is so benign they won't mind theirs being turned up to maximum and their dog having it less of a shock. See how many times they feel the dog needs to be shocked then !

They don't offend me in the slightest!! But you are TOTALLY wrong about me not being bothered to put in the time and effort. We put in a HUGE amount of time, effort and money to try to train a decent, reliable recall. It was abundantly apparent that we were on a hiding to nothing - we were faced with the choice of keeping him on the lead for ever - not an option. Euthanising - definitely not an option. Or trying an e collar - an option, and it turned out to be a total success.

Wys, hi there, long time no speak! You know me ... you know how I will fess up immediately when I am proved wrong, but believe me the last things Ben is are fearful and anxious!! He abounds with confidence, joie de vivre and bonhomie. He bears not a whisker of a grudge - he welcomes the collar every day being strapped round his neck, because he KNOWS it means walkies!! He would not be so excited if it caused him pain, fear or distress. He is an exceptionally intelligent dog - he knows full well what the collar is and what it did to him, and he cares not a jot.

I am thrilled with that dog, I really am. He is still a git - still tries to frighten you when you take him by the collar by threatening you with a flick of his head as if he were going to bite - nothing has dented his arsiness and his personality - but I absolutely adore him and so pleased that I let OH overrule me.

Definitely not a good idea to use an e collar on an aggressive dog in an attempt to cure the aggression. But for training a reliable recall, it has proved to be the ONLY thing that worked for Ben.

EXACTLY!! Which is why many dogs do not do at all well with an e collar, but many dogs. BECAUSE not all dogs are the same.

I use the word "buzz" to describe the vibrate setting on the e collar. To describe the "shock" I will say zap or stim - both are correct. The "shock" (not an electric shock) stimulates the muscles, this is how it works. It does not administer an electric shock.

We have never zapped/stimmed Ben on anything higher than the 20 setting. Both myself and my husband have zapped each other with the collar set to 20 and as I have repeatedly said, it is no worse than my Slendertone machine. Not sure what setting the dogtra goes up to - I think it is about 80 or 100. I would imagine that would give you such a massive kick it would indeed be extremely painful, but we have never used anything on Ben that we have not used on ourselves.

When we try to get hold of a dog by the back of his collar to a dog we are being aggressive, the back of the neck is a very venerable place which they will protect by attacking back. His threatening you when you get hold of his collar is a dog being a dog and trying to protect himself. We have to teach our dogs that there is nothing to be frightened of by getting hold of the back of the collar.

I remember when Jan Fennell had programs, every dog she grabbed by the back of the collar until one day a dog attacked back, after that she told the owner to grab the collar instead.