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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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14-03-2011, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound 
I have to say that my boy, and alot of other peoples dogs, is not motivated by treats and toys. It does make training him harder and you have to be more inventive (and yes he is too smart for his own good
)You are not alone in that Gnasher.
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Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,065
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14-03-2011, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
No, I am sure I am not. My daughter's chi, Gucci, is similar. You need to roll with the punches, not every dog is turned on day after day by the same mindless thing. It does make training harder, but more interesting!
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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14-03-2011, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
No he is not scared in day to day life, but he is scared that the shock is going to come again when he hears you call him - so he returns, he seems very happy because he isnt getting shocked
It is rather arrogant of you to in one breath tell me that I have no idea about northen breeds - then you to say you ignore the advice of everyone who owns northern breeds
Yes their recals are difficult
I dont doubt it is possible to get a recal on one
But why did it not occur to you that it should take more work and managment than in a 'easier' breed
No matter what breed someone who has a dog from a puppy for 8 or so months does not expect it to always have 100% recal in that short time
an abused rescue dog takes longer because things change as they become more confident and trust their humans
Ben was indeed abused for the first 3 years of his, then for the next couple or so years he was not abused. He was rescued from the "abusers" by a lovely lady who lives in Cornwall. Unfortunately, her rottie bitch was beating Ben up so badly that she had to rehome him. He was rehomed by a friend of our's who had known and loved Hal, and Ben lived with him for about 18 months or 2 years, when he had a bad accident and had to be hospitalised for a long time. His boss was looking after Ben, but Ben kept attacked his JRT's on the farm, and that is where we stepped into the equation back in June. It has been some time since he was "abused". He was no shrinking violet when we took him on!
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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14-03-2011, 10:24 PM
Not only that but he has a history of fighting with other dogs and you have him offlead
He is an older dog and you expect him to settle into your way of life and understand your training in less than a year
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Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
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14-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
No it is not, you do not understand about "electricity" - neither do I, but OH has tried to explain to me the difference between current - which is what you think is generated by an e collar - and voltage. I hope to goodness I get this right, because I am still struggling to understand, but here goes. Current is what kills you, or electrocutes you. If you stick your finger into a live light socket, you will get a blast of current which may kill you. An e collar delivers electricity mainly as volts - and very little amps. An e collar cannot electrocute anybody or anything, because it doesn't deliver amps (which is current), it delivers volts. Volts of electricity cause muscular contraction - like my Slendertone machine. It does not electrocute. Electrocution = current, which flows through the body and can cause death of course because it interferes with the heart electrical rhythms.
I hope this explains how an e collar works.
I understand more about it than he does---so its lucky he didn't get offered a job as an electrician!
The electric shock collar delivers an electric shock---as I said, the clue is in the name!
rune
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Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,947
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14-03-2011, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
No, I am sure I am not. My daughter's chi, Gucci, is similar. You need to roll with the punches, not every dog is turned on day after day by the same mindless thing. It does make training harder, but more interesting!
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Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,947
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14-03-2011, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
He spends on average 4 hours a day walking the dogs, I personally think this is pretty good, but unfortunately he cannot then take a further hour or two to train Ben. As you rightly say, training is something that should be done continuously as part of the daily walking, and that is exactly what he does, and what I do at weekends. But you should know, having a CWD, who presumably you let off the lead, that the hardest thing to do is to train a good reliable recall.
As far as I know, this is the first post where you have mentioned that your OH has actually been involved in any training of Ben until the e-collar came onto the scene. Therefore, it's not really surprising that an assumption that the only training Ben had prior to the collar was at the weekends when it seems a variety of techniques? were tried over a period of 6-8 months.
Could I ask, has Ben ever had any individual training with either of you, or has he always had your other dog around when out and about?
You've gone into quite a bit of detail about your OH's use of the e-collar, but nothing at all about other training that has been done.
Just musing here because no one can know for sure, but I would imagine that Ben is reacting to the vibrate because the sensation is in the same area as he previously received the painful shocks. Hopefully, he'll never test out the training because if and when he does it will be at a time when you least expect it and are the least prepared to fiddle with the remote. For Ben's sake, I hope it never happens, but .....................
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Location: South Wales
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,408
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14-03-2011, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
It has occurred to me - I have had 13 years experience of the an extremely difficult "northern breed" followed by his son!
Ben was indeed abused for the first 3 years of his, then for the next couple or so years he was not abused. He was rescued from the "abusers" by a lovely lady who lives in Cornwall. Unfortunately, her rottie bitch was beating Ben up so badly that she had to rehome him. He was rehomed by a friend of our's who had known and loved Hal, and Ben lived with him for about 18 months or 2 years, when he had a bad accident and had to be hospitalised for a long time. His boss was looking after Ben, but Ben kept attacked his JRT's on the farm, and that is where we stepped into the equation back in June. It has been some time since he was "abused". He was no shrinking violet when we took him on!
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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15-03-2011, 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle
Gosh - I'm amazed the learning theory does not work on your dogs.
It seems to work for every other animal....
BTW - have you read Karen Pryors latest book - a very interesting bit about how she managed to clicker train a Wolf in a very short session.
Its a shame you cannot manage to train your dogs in a similar way.
For interest, some info:
Clicker training - yes
Restraints - collar and lead optional
Other equipment - none
Aversives - none
Auditory cues - "Down" is introduced once the final behaviour is offered regularly
Visual cues - trainer's finger pointing to the ground
Reinforcers:
Rewards used - cheese, liver, raw chicken
Variation in size of reward - yes
Variety of reward used - yes. A single training session can herald the arrival of a variety of rewards
Use of rewards as lures or targets - occasionally; during initial stages, food might be used to lure the wolf's attention to the ground
Highlights - being unable to concentrate on the task in hand provided a learning obstacle and Maddie also helped herself to stash! Typical wolf in other words, but able to learn. She was also just 9 months old.
More info: "Clicker training is being used to improve the communication between these representatives of wolfdom and humans"
Wys
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