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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 10:21 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
well, i dont do religion and your answer is a cop out

so whats a YEC?
Yes !! Come on Promethean, tell !!
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Vodka Vixen
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02-05-2009, 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
blimey

is that all!
As I said I could be totally barking up the wrong tree (so to speak) but as religion was mentioned, that was all I could think of
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 11:35 AM
Well, if you're right, what a storm in a teacup !! I was hoping for something FAR more juicy than that !!

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Tassle
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02-05-2009, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post

I don't call making a child, a dog, a horse, whatever, face up to a fear flooding. I call it commonsense !
You can call it that - but the technical term is Flooding. It is a very dangerous technigque to use and can very easily go wrong.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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02-05-2009, 01:18 PM
To simply describe the difference between flooding and desensitisation

Imagine a person has a deep irrational fear of spiders, every time she sees one she totaly freezes, is unable to see anything but the spider, heat races. cold sweat, the works

Flooding would be to take that person and put them in a room totalty full of spiders

Sure for some people it might work - but some it would traumatise them for even and make them 100 times worse - and even for the people it worked for the total stress they felt when they went into the room would be just horrible

and some methods of training would not only shove the person in the room but also tell them off every time they showed fear

Desensitisation, and counter conditioning
would have the person doing something they enjoy in a relaxed calm manner, then introducing a spider at a distance that they are aware of but that dosent cause more than a slight stress (you will have seen tv shows where the person is being asked on a scale of 1 - 10 to rate their stress) then when the person is calm giving them a tenner
Doing this for a few days or weeks until the person associates the spider along way away with getting a tenner - and so the spider starts to be associated with nice things, then a tiny step at a time moving a little closer to the spider - and with a change towards the spider giving £50 now and again
Sure it will take more time - but the person will never feel particularly stressed - and if done correctly it will work on everyone not just some!


Noise sensitivity can be a little more difficult, of course it is another thing Mia has
Something I found really helped is bach rescue remidy - and I know some people find a DAP coller helps
also you can get training cd's with the sounds of thunder that you build up the volume slowly while the dog is doing something it loves

giving the dog a safe place to hide like a crate helps too

The difficulty with thunder is it can be the change in pressure that affects the dogs too - so unless you are a storm chaser it is difficult to repliate the conditions - and it can be difficult to predict a storm comming
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Wysiwyg
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02-05-2009, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
...I am terrified of very loud thunder claps right above the house, and when these happen, will always jump and exclaim. Hal, being exceptionally intelligent and very sharp, picked up on this immediately and because I am alpha female or Pack leader, what you will, he thought "aha, there must be something in this thunder, AF is scared so therefore I had better be.
Ah, but the only thing is - that can and does happen with any of us, "pack leader" or not ..... what you describe isn't due to Hal seeing you as pack leader, it's due to him responding to other individuals showing fear, and others being startled.

You can, for instance, see a similar thing (I think it's similar although I've not thought it through yet) in wild grazing animals in Africa - wildebeest showing fear, for instance, will scare not only each other but also the zebra and all will be on alert, and with adrenalin flowing ready to fight or flee....

Wys
x
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Wysiwyg
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02-05-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
To simply describe the difference between flooding and desensitisation

Imagine a person has a deep irrational fear of spiders, every time she sees one she totaly freezes, is unable to see anything but the spider, heat races. cold sweat, the works

Flooding would be to take that person and put them in a room totalty full of spiders

Sure for some people it might work - but some it would traumatise them for even and make them 100 times worse - and even for the people it worked for the total stress they felt when they went into the room would be just horrible

and some methods of training would not only shove the person in the room but also tell them off every time they showed fear

Desensitisation, and counter conditioning
would have the person doing something they enjoy in a relaxed calm manner, then introducing a spider at a distance that they are aware of but that dosent cause more than a slight stress (you will have seen tv shows where the person is being asked on a scale of 1 - 10 to rate their stress) then when the person is calm giving them a tenner
Doing this for a few days or weeks until the person associates the spider along way away with getting a tenner - and so the spider starts to be associated with nice things, then a tiny step at a time moving a little closer to the spider - and with a change towards the spider giving £50 now and again
Sure it will take more time - but the person will never feel particularly stressed - and if done correctly it will work on everyone not just some!


Noise sensitivity can be a little more difficult, of course it is another thing Mia has
Something I found really helped is bach rescue remidy - and I know some people find a DAP coller helps
also you can get training cd's with the sounds of thunder that you build up the volume slowly while the dog is doing something it loves

giving the dog a safe place to hide like a crate helps too

The difficulty with thunder is it can be the change in pressure that affects the dogs too - so unless you are a storm chaser it is difficult to repliate the conditions - and it can be difficult to predict a storm comming
I wish we could give reppies as that post deserves one

Wys
x
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
You can call it that - but the technical term is Flooding. It is a very dangerous technigque to use and can very easily go wrong.
So people keep telling me ! Yet this is how I was raised a child, as I raised my child, as I have always treated all my numerous dogs and I have never ever had "anything" go wrong.

It is the natural way of teaching our young not to be frightened of things which they perceive to be dangerous IMO.

Maybe I have just been lucky !
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
To simply describe the difference between flooding and desensitisation

Imagine a person has a deep irrational fear of spiders, every time she sees one she totaly freezes, is unable to see anything but the spider, heat races. cold sweat, the works

Flooding would be to take that person and put them in a room totalty full of spiders

Sure for some people it might work - but some it would traumatise them for even and make them 100 times worse - and even for the people it worked for the total stress they felt when they went into the room would be just horrible

and some methods of training would not only shove the person in the room but also tell them off every time they showed fear

Desensitisation, and counter conditioning
would have the person doing something they enjoy in a relaxed calm manner, then introducing a spider at a distance that they are aware of but that dosent cause more than a slight stress (you will have seen tv shows where the person is being asked on a scale of 1 - 10 to rate their stress) then when the person is calm giving them a tenner
Doing this for a few days or weeks until the person associates the spider along way away with getting a tenner - and so the spider starts to be associated with nice things, then a tiny step at a time moving a little closer to the spider - and with a change towards the spider giving £50 now and again
Sure it will take more time - but the person will never feel particularly stressed - and if done correctly it will work on everyone not just some!


Noise sensitivity can be a little more difficult, of course it is another thing Mia has
Something I found really helped is bach rescue remidy - and I know some people find a DAP coller helps
also you can get training cd's with the sounds of thunder that you build up the volume slowly while the dog is doing something it loves

giving the dog a safe place to hide like a crate helps too

The difficulty with thunder is it can be the change in pressure that affects the dogs too - so unless you are a storm chaser it is difficult to repliate the conditions - and it can be difficult to predict a storm comming
No, with Hal it was definitely just the fact that I appeared to be scared of thunder, so in that case, there must be something to be scared of. My calm and consistent facing up to the naughty thunder showed him that he did not need to be scared any more. It worked. I am bemused as to see how this could possibly be described as flooding ! Your analogy of the spiders yes, I would describe that as flooding, and exceptionally cruel flooding. That would be the equivalent of me locking Hal in the conservatory with a massive thunder storm overhead banging and crashing away, and me just walking away and leaving him in there on his own. I most certainly did not do that, I stayed with him the whole time through thunder storms and with fireworks which he was also terrified of, again because of me.

I used to be absolutely petrified of moths. Now I am not. Why? Because I forced myself to face up to my extremely irrational fear ! I used to be a very very nervous rider, absolutely petrified every time the horse shied or did something unexpectedly. How did I get over my fear? Got myself a quiet old schoolmaster who was by no means a slob, but calm and well behaved. Together, we sorted out my fear. I would go pottering around the lanes on him, walking and trotting until I felt confident enough to go on bridleways and do a bit of cantering. I forced myself to do it, was I being cruel to myself ?? !!

i really don't buy into facing up to our fears = flooding.
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Ah, but the only thing is - that can and does happen with any of us, "pack leader" or not ..... what you describe isn't due to Hal seeing you as pack leader, it's due to him responding to other individuals showing fear, and others being startled.

You can, for instance, see a similar thing (I think it's similar although I've not thought it through yet) in wild grazing animals in Africa - wildebeest showing fear, for instance, will scare not only each other but also the zebra and all will be on alert, and with adrenalin flowing ready to fight or flee....

Wys
x
No !! It was me that caused his phobia. I remember so clearly the night it happened. I was sitting in the conservatory with him watching a thunder storm. It was after a very riding bad accident that I had had during which my horse was killed, and my nerves were totally shattered and on edge. Every little thing made me jump, pre-accident I was not scared of thunder claps above the house, post-accident I was. There was the mother and father of a thunder clap right above the house, the whole foundations seemed to shake and the sky lit up !! I screamed, OH came flying to see what was happening, and that's when Hal's fear of thunder started, and of fireworks too, although prior to that incident we used to take him to firework displays !! He loved fireworks until that night.

It was my fault totally and utterly. And it was my duty to get him over his fear, which I did, kindly, calmly and consistently "holding his paw" metaphorically speaking by showing him that there was nothing to be scared of !! And very very hard it was too for me, because I was still petrified of loud bangs !!
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