Mini, I've actually decided to start campaigning for this to be included in all puppy school hand outs. I am 100% convinced that had I been aware of it at the start (sorry Ramble, I should have listened to you!!) I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now.

Absolutely brilliant and a really great way to look at things. Positive and proactive. Thanks for that.

Agree!!

Yikes. That's exactly the kind of dog owner behaviour that frightens me.

Agree. We did it because we thought we had to. How wrong we were!! ;o)

Quite right. The post is about your thoughts on your position within yours and your pets home environment and you've answered it perfectly.

Huh? How can a snap mean bite whent he word for bite is, erm, bite. It's pretty clear cut to me what she meant I'm afraid.

Agree 100%. Good point and one I really think would help people if they understood.

Ok don't shoot me but i voted other.

I don't see me as Alpha, but then I don't live as a dog.

I see me as more guide, I protect them and perhaps go first into things to show them it's ok/trust/you can follow etc.,

But I do have boundries which they respect, but then i respect thier boundries too.

OK not making any sense i know.....I'll go now BYE

Point taken Lottie. Perhaps you would like to pass on your comments to some other posters here on Dogsey who do just what you have described ... frequently and monotonously (spelling?)

Sorry if I upset you

This is getting silly. The difference between a snap and a bite is this. A dog can snap at your hand ... and may or may not make contact. If he makes contact, then this would be called a bite. A dog could make the conscious decision to bite ... ie you are holding on to his collar, and he turns his mouth towards your hand and sinks in his teeth. The difference, in my mind, between a snap and a bite is speed therefore. A snap is either an "air" snap, or a snap that makes contact. A bite could be a slow, leisurely build up to a sinking in of the teeth.

Either way, it is unacceptable, especially in today's anti dog climate. What are you going to say to the mother of the toddler who your dog has just snapped at (but not bitten)? O sorry your little girl is so upset, the dog was only air snapping !

Get real folks - this is the litigious 21st century we live in ! I only hope all you guys who think it's OK for your dogs to go round snapping have got plenty of insurance ... you'll need it.

Pidge: you said :

"Yikes. That's exactly the kind of dog owner behaviour that frightens me."

I agree. I have already said this was my husband's poor handling skills, not mine. I hope you weren't thinking I was responsible !

He knows better now. It is the one and only mistake he ever made with Hal, who being the well balanced dog that he was, did not bear a grudge.

Hey

No, I'm not really pointing the blame at either of you as we all make mistakes (don't I just know it). It was more of a passing comment.

I do worry about your view of being ''alpha'' though, but again, it is your view and your wish to play that role and who am I to judge ;o)

I think most of us here are basically trying to say the same thing (great thread idea pidge really opened some good discussion).

Reading through all the posts, it seems to me we're all basically saying 'sort of... ish' but can't get the terminology quite right. Everything has difficult connotations that can be taken wrong, or used too literally or out of context... We know what our relationship is between us and our dogs and it seems to me that with only a couple of exceptions it's the same relationship being described here... One of rules and boundaries, but tempered by mutual respect and love.

I think I said 'Boss' at first.. but then I suppose that does assume more dictatorial attitude than I mean.

Alpha male clearly is far too muddy a term... involving connotations of masculinity and wolf that frankly is uncomfortable.

'Mummy' Sort of fits when you think of the role of Mummy in the household, excellently described here, and in that context I agree.. But to say I am their Mummy normally would make me worried people thought I was over soppy and about to dye them pink and push them in prams (not literally, but you know what I mean, I hope). Also no good for the male dog owners out there...

Pack leader - too cesar milan, too wild dog theory based.

Leader - Closer maybe.. but still misses out on some of the emotional and mutual elements perhaps? Also can let some people think that the dogs should be able to somehow just intuitively follow with no input on the 'leader's' part.

Friend - Possibly assumes too much equality... Certainly would be taken wrong by many.

Teacher or mentor - may be a closer role? "I am my dog's mentor". Just trying that one on for size... hmmm... not bad.

Maybe what we need here is a new word. A word that means leader and Mummy and mentor and friend and Boss...?

Exactly Pidge, thank you. I am indeed "alpha" for want of a better word, although I think I prefer to use "boss" as the alpha word seems to kick off so much negativity.

I really would love you to meet Tai. You will see that despite my cruel opinions he adores me, and my husband. He is everything I could ever want in a dog (apart from my beloved Hal back again, but Tai doesn't know that !). He is obedient, but no sycophant, he is brilliant with children, pets (both in our house, and other houses), he is extremely loving, loyal, intelligent, the list is endless ! He is challenging, his prey drive is very high being a mal/husky mix, so we have to be very vigilant, but he is a pleasure to have.

When we first had him, it wasn't so. He was very stressy because he had been left Home Alone for long periods each day. He was obedient, his recall was good, but he had no basic manners. He barged through doors, gates, down the stairs, tried to bowl you over to get his food, was "in your face" and a git. Within 24 hours of demonstrating in a calm, assertive way that this behaviour would not be tolerated, he was 50% better. Within a week, the dog was transformed. He was rudderless before, not cruelly treated at all, his owner adores him, but he needed a Boss, and we have provided the leadership that he wants.

I hope I've explained this well, I probably haven't, but believe me, if you met my dog you would exclaim what a calm, happy chappy he is !

I voted "other" because "Mummy" best describes my relationship with the dogs. Someone used that term earlier in this thread and as I was reading it I was thinking "Yes! That's us!"

Thats my point..I see alpha as all of those so yes I would..I see alpha as the boss..Alpha wolves are the boss, they educate they protect..so they do all of that too,,Whether you want to call it the boss, the alpha, the provider, Mummy..whatever it all means the same to me..

I lead my dogs, the follow (most of the time) with no need for dominance or any form of force..I would rather my dogs respect me than fear me..BUT I do beleive that MY dogs and dogs of similar breeds live in a pack..I don't have to do a "Shaun Ellis" and eat their dinner with them for them to KNOW I am their boss..they just know..For anyone who says that dogs don't live in a pack structure they need to get themselves into a house where there lives a pack of Mals or Sibes..and live and watch them for a few weeks..They may well indeed rethink the whole thing..

I am not arguing with anyone about anything..this is my opinion..right or wrong its what I beleive..

When you see wolves in the wild it is clear there is a pack structure..and dogs living in a similar structure have their pack work along similar lines..(obviously without the need for the hunt etc)..