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wildmoor
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14-11-2011, 11:44 PM
I have had WGSL since the 90s mine do not whinge and jump all over people - they are also sound in nerves, are stable around gun fire, can be taken anywhere - as many know I do not partake in sport it doesnt interest me but my past and my current show line have done many things over the years - current one is therapy dog, previous have worked to the gun, one was even a PPD - dont assume because your showline whinges and jumps all over people they are all like that!

Rachel this is the reason I have kept out of this thread too many misconceptions
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Shrap
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15-11-2011, 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by wildmoor View Post
I have had WGSL since the 90s mine do not whinge and jump all over people - they are also sound in nerves, are stable around gun fire, can be taken anywhere - as many know I do not partake in sport it doesnt interest me but my past and my current show line have done many things over the years - current one is therapy dog, previous have worked to the gun, one was even a PPD - dont assume because your showline whinges and jumps all over people they are all like that!

Rachel this is the reason I have kept out of this thread too many misconceptions
You're clever, Pam. I just can't keep my big nose oot haha.

My pup is yet to mature so I can't speak fully of him yet. But he does not whinge and jump all over people, apart from me, and only when invited to. He does get very excited around me but I have specifically trained him not to jump all over me until I have released him to do so. He has never been interested in other people though. Only myself and his breeders.
He's very steady without me doing any training. We went to a firework display with lots of massive loud noises, bangs, whizzes. Children running around screaming with sparklers and flashy glow sticks. Huge crowds of people. He showed an interest in chasing the high pitched fast things but when told to sit/down he does so.
However when we are playing, on my terms, he gets very into it. He adores tuggy, chases, retrieve, mixed in with training. His grip is very good for a dog his age and he won't let go for anything (except his 100% out). He LOVES to work/play. Would do all day if I had the energy.
I can't say for stamina as I'm not supposed to walk him so much but he does a few hours running around just fine and keeps up with his sprint type husky girlfriend. I do not let him jump anything.
I can't remember what other criteria you mentioned - on my phone so it's a pain to check.
Oh and defense drive - not sure really. But if out at night and he sees someone walking towards us he will stand up between us and watch, he judges body language very well. He is not scared of anything and I have no doubt he would protect me fearlessly if needed.
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smokeybear
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15-11-2011, 06:53 AM
Originally Posted by Kizzy24 View Post
Although TD ex is a very difficult qualification to gain...it merely only tests the dog on tracking/scent work and a small bit of agility. The rest such as send away retrieve etc is purely down to the skill of the trainer. Also even some dogs that are competing very high in PD stakes lack nerve and courage but have been cleverly trained to deal with the tests using distraction methods....i spent many a cold long days watching dog after dog be worked through the PD exercises having to be taught how to overcome small stressors etc. It would be unfair of me to name people and their dogs but roughly about 9 showlines for this in particular sport
Tell me, how many dogs have you qualified TDex? How many tickets have you won?

Oh, I think that would be a 0.

There is no "merely" about a TDex qualification. It is a serious qualification and not all dogs will make even ONE TDex let alone qualify week in and week out.

The vast majority of triallists have no interest in PD or, even if they did, have great difficulty getting regular access to the type of resources needed for this stake.

When you can get a dog around a 3 hour, 25 leg track having recoverd three articles and then got 4 articles out of a square followed by the gun test; when your dog can successfully clear a 3ft hurdle, 9ft long jump and negotiate the scale twice; when your dog can complete a 2- 300 yard sendaway with at least one 200 yard redirect if not more; do a 10 minute down stay out of sight; speak on command and do heelwork at slow, medium and fast pace with no commands.

All of the above in various ways the judge may devise in competition week in and week out then you may add the word "merely".

The argument over show v working lines is irrelevant in this context in any case.

It reminds me of when I started Schutzhund after many years in Working Trials.

I found that the Schutzhund people said that "WT is easy" and vice versa. Few have done both, fewer still very successfully, even fewer have trained and competed dogs at BOTH sports "Nationals" where the best of the best compete.

I have.

So I think I can speak with some authority.

In addition I have not only spent many a long cold day WATCHING dogs from the sidelines, but many a YEAR laying tracks, squares, stewarding control and agility, putting on a sleeve, and judging.

I prefer the working line GSD, but many people could not cope with one, nor would they have the skills, knowledge, abilty, training or experience to handle one as well as having the same for the relevant sports.

There IS a difference that cannot be denied, that is just a fact, the same way there is a difference between show line Labradors and Spaniels to the working lines. These are facts.

The other KEY thing to remember is that Schutzhund was designed as a way of selecting suitable BREEDING material.

Working Trials is just a sport, which does not require a particular STYLE of performance as Schutzhund does, there are no marks for example for speed of the sendaway.

Working Trials is a sport based on Patrol Dog work, but designed for the pet dog whether it is your rescue, mongrel or pure bred animal, show or work.

There are also no "courage" marks as there are in Schutzhund.

I have seen some very nice Showline GSD, some very nice Show x Work and some very nice Working Line GSD.

Aren't we lucky? There is something for EVERYONE according to their wants and needs.
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Moobli
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15-11-2011, 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Tell me, how many dogs have you qualified TDex? How many tickets have you won?

Oh, I think that would be a 0.

There is no "merely" about a TDex qualification. It is a serious qualification and not all dogs will make even ONE TDex let alone qualify week in and week out.

The vast majority of triallists have no interest in PD or, even if they did, have great difficulty getting regular access to the type of resources needed for this stake.

When you can get a dog around a 3 hour, 25 leg track having recoverd three articles and then got 4 articles out of a square followed by the gun test; when your dog can successfully clear a 3ft hurdle, 9ft long jump and negotiate the scale twice; when your dog can complete a 2- 300 yard sendaway with at least one 200 yard redirect if not more; do a 10 minute down stay out of sight; speak on command and do heelwork at slow, medium and fast pace with no commands.

All of the above in various ways the judge may devise in competition week in and week out then you may add the word "merely".

The argument over show v working lines is irrelevant in this context in any case.

It reminds me of when I started Schutzhund after many years in Working Trials.

I found that the Schutzhund people said that "WT is easy" and vice versa. Few have done both, fewer still very successfully, even fewer have trained and competed dogs at BOTH sports "Nationals" where the best of the best compete.

I have.

So I think I can speak with some authority.

In addition I have not only spent many a long cold day WATCHING dogs from the sidelines, but many a YEAR laying tracks, squares, stewarding control and agility, putting on a sleeve, and judging.

I prefer the working line GSD, but many people could not cope with one, nor would they have the skills, knowledge, abilty, training or experience to handle one as well as having the same for the relevant sports.

There IS a difference that cannot be denied, that is just a fact, the same way there is a difference between show line Labradors and Spaniels to the working lines. These are facts.

The other KEY thing to remember is that Schutzhund was designed as a way of selecting suitable BREEDING material.

Working Trials is just a sport, which does not require a particular STYLE of performance as Schutzhund does, there are no marks for example for speed of the sendaway.

Working Trials is a sport based on Patrol Dog work, but designed for the pet dog whether it is your rescue, mongrel or pure bred animal, show or work.

There are also no "courage" marks as there are in Schutzhund.

I have seen some very nice Showline GSD, some very nice Show x Work and some very nice Working Line GSD.

Aren't we lucky? There is something for EVERYONE according to their wants and needs.

What an informative, excellent, balanced post.
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Kizzy24
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15-11-2011, 01:42 PM
So you think TDex tests a German Shepherd in every aspect of what it was originally bred for? That was my point no need to get funny with me I was "merely" stating that just because you have seen many showlines qualify this title doesnt mean they are not nervous/lack courage/drive etc etc which was my whole point in the first place.
No I havent qualified TDex....Ive been too busy training dogs to do a 3 hour old 25 leg track for real.....Police Dogs!

I dont think either sport is easy...never have. But I also dont think either sport tests a dog truely....I know a few working line Schutzhund dogs that lack nerve/courage etc but have got very far in the SPORT as this is all it is now....a field, a sleeve, a routine. Both sports could do with a little of both in each of them.

If you're happy with your showline then thats fine but please dont pretend that they are on par with a good working line because if you speak to anyone that has owned both they will for sure agree they are miles apart!
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smokeybear
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15-11-2011, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Kizzy24 View Post
So you think TDex tests a German Shepherd in every aspect of what it was originally bred for?

No it does not test herding ability for example which was what it was ORIGINALLY bred for.

NO sport tests a GSD in EVERY aspect for what it was originally bred for.

That was my point no need to get funny with me I was "merely" stating that just because you have seen many showlines qualify this title doesnt mean they are not nervous/lack courage/drive etc etc which was my whole point in the first place.

SOME may be, not all. Sweeping generalisations only undermine the credibility of those making them.

No I havent qualified TDex....Ive been too busy training dogs to do a 3 hour old 25 leg track for real.....Police Dogs!

Hmmm training police dogs or training would be police dogs?

I dont think either sport is easy...never have. But I also dont think either sport tests a dog truely....I know a few working line Schutzhund dogs that lack nerve/courage etc but have got very far in the SPORT as this is all it is now....a field, a sleeve, a routine. Both sports could do with a little of both in each of them.

Hmm but you have never been on the podium in either have you?

If you're happy with your showline then thats fine but please dont pretend that they are on par with a good working line because if you speak to anyone that has owned both they will for sure agree they are miles apart!
I am not sure WHERE you got the idea that I own a showline GSD and if you actually read my post PROPERLY you will see that I stated that the show and working line GSD are very different.

You see it is THAT attention to detail that separates the "wannabees" from the "contenders"
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Shrap
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15-11-2011, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
I am not sure WHERE you got the idea that I own a showline GSD and if you actually read my post PROPERLY you will see that I stated that the show and working line GSD are very different.

You see it is THAT attention to detail that separates the "wannabees" from the "contenders"
I have to spread my rep around before repping you again. This is the kind of balanced post I love.

Of course there's a HUGE difference between working and show line dogs, all I wanted was for someone to acknowledge that show lines aren't useless. Which is what certain people have implied.
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Kizzy24
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15-11-2011, 06:28 PM
I know you dont have a showline "Smokeybear" :s My whole post was not a reply to just you!

And Police dogs YES! The kind that no one else has done before....the part and fully trained ones. Not that I need to explain my business to you but police dog candidates have left our premises and have licensed within 10 days due to the standard and level they are already at.

So again....as everyone has ignored my question....Ill repeat it......which showline GSD do you feel has all the fantastic qualities of a GOOD working GSD and would give lets say my own male Jerry Lee a run for his money?????
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wildmoor
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15-11-2011, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Kizzy24 View Post
I know you dont have a showline "Smokeybear" :s My whole post was not a reply to just you!

And Police dogs YES! The kind that no one else has done before....the part and fully trained ones. Not that I need to explain my business to you but police dog candidates have left our premises and have licensed within 10 days due to the standard and level they are already at.

So again....as everyone has ignored my question....Ill repeat it......which showline GSD do you feel has all the fantastic qualities of a GOOD working GSD and would give lets say my own male Jerry Lee a run for his money?????
you made your answer look as if you were answering SB only - maybe word your replies better
how well do you know showlines?
how well do you actualy know your own lines or are you a broker not a breeder?
My Vorhanden Storm was a PPD he also had sibblings in service West Mids, Manpol and the prison service
dont make assumption and generalise
it wasnt one of your breeding that was a retired police dog was it that had to retire at 3years due to fitting - and yes it was all European worklines
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Kizzy24
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15-11-2011, 07:28 PM
I know showlines quite well but not as well as someone who shows/breeds them....an honest answer! I cannot and will not name names of kennels/breeders that are extremely "well known" in the show world that I have seen and worked some of their stock. I have 2 showlines from 2 of the top breeders of showlines in the U.K.....a daughter of a "SCH III" dog which I did think at the time was genuine but turns out not so much! What angers me is I go to Crufts every year...as I did used to show myself but not GSD's (and I do actually love some of heads and colours on the showlines and I do wish they were on par with a working line so dont think I am putting them down because I dont like them!) is I actually saw a Male that really shyed away from the judge...now I mean REALLY...bordering on a bite if the handler hadn't grabbed his head....this dog went on to win!! and not only that... my friend who is very into showlines and is starting to show herself went on to buy a puppy from him when she herself witnessed this! This is what is wrong with showlines and this is why more and more nerve bags are being created every day because the show people use these winners at stud!
Your dog may well have been used at stud but you know as well as I do not a lot of police forces (and they will admit this themselves)dont have a lot of knowledge in breeding and using good stock...there are a few definitely that have their head screwed on and use top dogs....and your dog may have been very good...I wouldn't know...perhaps you have a video? Also your boy may be a lot older now...a lot has changed in the last 10 years...showlines are not how they once were....I wonder how many would use him now??
I know my stock very well thank you and as a Qualified Veterinary Nurse I find it apauling that you can ask or try to name me as a broker not a breeder??
No I haven't ever heard of that story before and again dont try to assume random stories of unsuccessful police dogs must relate to me! :/ We have only been BREEDING 12 months so it is an impossibility! Also to have a "dig" at european lines is also a little low too...Ive never said they are all health perfect...but then again what breed is
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