Yeah I was meaning PD stakes and through clever training you can get a "windy" dog through the tests but the tests of courage's at ticket level are far harder than you would think. I reckon a fair few Schutzhund dogs would bottle some of the tests which is why I don't think Schutzhund is as good of a test as it could be for breeding.

What does the courage tests for both sports consist of?

How do you think the Schutzhund courage test could be improved?

I would say that my showline longhaired shepherd has high ball drive, good muscle tone and stamina, however he does not have strong nerves and is a rather sensitive character in certain situations (although not particularly nervous)

The courage test for Schutzhund is a full frontal "attack" with a stick raised and the sleeve presented at the last minute. It's a hard one as it is an extremely strong attack from the dogs point of view...helper shows no fear and persists until the dog has bitten. Some trial dogs I know wouldn't go through with the bite as helpers in Schutzhund are very strong and can be intimidating. The problem is, is that from a young age you can teach the puppy/dog that this is nothing to worry about and the sleeve will always com etc so nervy dogs can do this test happily in a trial.

In working trials the courage test is set by the judge on the day and you have no idea what it is until you are are on the field competing and the challenge is faced to you and your dog. One that sticks in my mind is 3 decoys all had those noisy football clappers and were shouting at the dog. The dog was sent and at the last minute a 3m square net of mirrors clashing together was lifted in front of the dog, blocking the decoys and sleeves etc. Only one dog that day went through and bit the sleeve...the others either bottled it or ran around and eventually bit.

This is where I think lies an answer to Schutzhund...if the test was always different and it was judged how the dog reacted and dealt with the situation. I dont think it will ever happen but other sports like mondio ring do different things like this too.

I can post videos if I can find any. Can you do that on here?

Wow - that WT test was SOME TEST! I can imagine only the very strongest nerved dogs would panic when faced with something like that! Brilliant idea.

Yes you can post vids, but not sure how you do it, as I am new to broadband and so couldn't even watch videos until a month ago - never mind post them (I live out in the sticks!).

Ok il try and see how you do it...I live out in the sticks too....don't even get me started on B.T and their antics with the internet! lol!

I think it would be great to have a variation in the courage test in Sch. It would make it much more fun to train too!

The ToC at the KCCs was 6 criminals hurling bricks at the dog and handler.

Last year the dogs at the KCCs had to cope with a screaming woman running towards them who they had to ignore , go towards a man firing a gun in a marquee whilst cardboard boxes were pushed towards them.

We have had buckets of water, dustbin lids, dogs having to go through a tunnel, I could go on, they are limited only by the judge's imagination.

Some of the best PD dogs particularly in the ToC have been BC/WSD.

Terry Hadley, Mike Snow, Ellie Rushton all had awesome collies.

And of course this year the KCC PD stake was won by a Labrador and Suzanne Jaffa made up her ASD into a WT Ch by winning two PD Champ stakes.

Would have to agree generally. It's only since I started taking Zane to a Sch club that I realised just how big the difference can be. Zane is a Sl GSD whereas one of the trainers has a WL Mali. The main difference is the speed - and also the fact that th mali is trained in bitework etc whereas Zane isn't as yet.

Zane has all the necessary traits/requirements etc (courage, stamina and so on) but it took me a while to find his drive, or his "on/off" switch. I tried with food. He'd work for it but wasn't that botheresd unless he'd had no breakfast. So I decided that he would work for his breakfast, which is how he started in tracking. Basically, if he found it, he could eat it. Maybe a bit harsh but it worked.

The he wasn't interested in his ball at all. At home he'll go mad for it but out on the field he couldn't care less.

It was an ex-police colleague of mine who said I shoudl try what they use adn what customs officers use as a toy reward. That is, a rolled up towel with tape ont he ends. The tape is so that I have something to hold onto. The towel is rolled very tightly adn the dog can play with it, tug it, etc. This is how I built up and "found" zane's drive.

Now he'll do ANYTHING for that old towel and he knows if I remove it from the top of the kitchen cupboard, that he has to work so he sits by the door waiting to go out.

Also his age is against him. He'sa almost 4 years old and I think as a rule, it's easier to do this with a WL dog because that's wehat they've been bred for specifically and also one that is trained from a pup is well on their way to becoming titled if they haven't already by this time.

So in a nutshell, I do see what people are saying and agree to a certain extent. But with a LOT of very hard work, perseverance both on my part and on Zane's part, I have managed to get a 4 year old dog to find his drive and to do what the WL dogs are doing. Of course I have a lot of hard work in front of me if I want Zane to get anywhere but the idea was to find something we could both work at so that we don't get bored (he's already done al the pet obedience he could stomach). If he never makes it tot he bitework, it doesn't matter. he can continue with the tracking and obedience.

Forgot to mention..............

It would have been a lot easier to take Jenzi to Schutzhund but because of her dodgy hips she can't even do the obedience. It's a shame because she does have that drive that everyone looks for in a WL dog.