Glad you liked it Emma
Actually lots of the stuff can be used not only on gundogs, but on almost every breed

I would try it on Pickles but he has trouble finding his brain at the best of times!
Seriously though, some of your tips are so obvious when you think about it, but I just haven't had Gundogs long enough to work it out for myself........yet!
Keep it up, I'm really loving this thread!

No video this time I’m afraid as it was too wet and windy to take the camera out. I’m going training again on Wednesday Night at the URC which is more of the what I would call traditional trainers. My trainer goes there with her own dog and for the opportunity to get other bits of advice etc. She has a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever is stunning, he’s lovely to watch when working as well. Anwyay I’m off the subject, I’m really looking forward to Wednesday as we’ll be able to see a lot of other dogs working. Following week is gundog training again in my normal classes.

Going to have a bit of a vent now ….

I did some training at the weekend and like you’ve said about not giving a command unless you are going to follow it up, so we did a lot of basic stuff of him quite close to me, like I’ve said in a previous post I’ve been told I have to get the handling right, after you’ve said about the working trial training as well, I agree with what you’ve said, I was jumping the gun a bit about ‘undoing that training’ if he knows the size of the scent square then I can use that in gundog training. I don’t know why I said I was going to try and undo that. … must have been having a thick moment

I’ve got to have a good think about what I have to work on, I think a bit part is obedience again with me and him not ignoring me, my biggest problem is working out what I can do in training without wanting to make it difficult and not creating a problem. I hope I can explain this right, for instance, I took him in the woods yesterday and he can do marked retrieves quite easily on the heather (I’m guessing maybe because it’s shorter?) and so he has a better range of view, whereas in the fields, the grass is much much longer than what he can see, so I throw the dummies much higher in to the air so he can see it better. He can mark on heather reasonably well about 75 – 100 yards away, in the grass I was keeping to about 50 thinking it would ok, He was having a bit of difficulty finding it, so I stopped him and he did stop and sit then he winded it, the dummy was right next to him, I hadn’t given a command, as it had happened so quickly but he picked it up and brought it back, now do you praise or tell him off? Because he’s found the dummy and he did stop like he was told, he’s become a lot better at stopping, (I’ve been doing loads of blind retrieves against a hedge or fence to keep him in a straight line, but I’ve mixed it up where there actually is a dummy and where there isn’t, I’ll send him out sometimes he’ll get the dummy when I call out lost there, or if its going a blind where he’s going to be told to stop then there’s no dummy so if he ignores me there’s no retrieve and if he ignores me, the I go out and tell him off)

Because of doing that recently I did a blind along the hedge and there was a dummy about 70 yards back there was a cross wind, I stopped him at 50 and sent him back. He retrieved it beautifully.( I’ve done only one of these ) But I don’t want to do to much to soon like I’ve done before and ruin things, part of me is thinking that I should go right back to basics with him and keep him within 20 yards, so if I tell him something and he does ignore me I can go out and correct him, to keep him in close working with me, rather than get the opportunity for him to work on his own. But basic things like marked retrieves on heather he can do quite well over a distance. Hoepfully on Wednesday I can have a lot of these questions answered ! But if you can come with any other ideas then I’m all ears.

If I haven’t explained anything or people are confused by something then feel free to ask

Hi Willow :smt039
Was afraid you werent gonna come back

And like it has happend before, I´ve written down a looooong reply and then when I was about to post it.... ERROR
Lets see if I can remember it all


What I ment was, do not ask anything you arent willing to make him do. If that means you have to correct him or punish him, you must be ready to do so. Or dont do it at all
And as I´ve said before; make the training as simple and a succes everytime. Then its fun and exciting for the both of you

You need to have goals. Decide where you want to go with this.
But you know that allready; its the trials right?
With 7 days of the week, theres plenty to variate from there
To be able to do that without conflicts you do as mentioned above. And you train to read your dog and think ahead. In Nat´s thread where she´s starting training, I wrote about "changing the dogs mind". Like if you know it has a prob with recall, when its out there and you can see its thinking "fun time or whatever", get down on your knees, make some noise, get its attention and bring focus back on you.
Now I know recall isnt your prob. It was just an excample of thinking ahead

Stay off the short grass please As I´ve told you before, you dont want him to go by vision but you want him to think while he works! Get off the short grass ok

I´m confused Did you give him a command or not?
I think, if it was me, I would have whistled "search" if he was in the area.
But only if I was sure he wouldnt find it himself. How long did you wait for, before realizing he wouldnt find it?
And just one thing, NEVER punish/correct your dog once it has picked up

I have some ideas, but not sure you like them?
If I was you I would:
Write a list so I knew what my next goal was (what it is containing)
(I assume your trials will be single- and double marks? small searches and some basic ob?)
I would keep up the good work along the hedge and not worry too much about the distances
Do more of the searches as described for you
I would also spend a lot of time on basic ob (gundog stuff; heel, hinter, stop, etc)
And enjoy my time with my lovely dog and be happy I´m doing well

Oh and maybe get that video done so that nosey one on DW can have a look

Yes it is ! I want to one day to a test and be placed !!


I dont use short grass at all now, when I meant it was short heather it's about the same length as the grass that you used for Ally in the second video you did, in all the training I do now I dont have the dummy is easy to see places, he has to use nose to find it

I gave the command to stop and was just about to give the search command when he winded it himself and got the dummy.. hope that clears that up

I think is a small problem for me, I lack the experience when to intervene and get tell him where it is, Or to just leave it to his own devices (like I used to do) to find it, last week I was told (this is a very rough idea) that at a trial say if the dog turns the wrong way away from the dummy and starts searching for it on a much larger area you'll loose marks, but if you stop it and direct it back to the area you wont loose as many, my problem is that I'm frightened of stopping him to soon when he may be able to find it on his own, if given those extra few minutes. I hope that makes sense.

Like on Wednesday it was marked retrieve, dummies where being thrown one at a time, then retrieved, then it was the next persons turn too throw their own dummy, so there was only one dummy at a time out there. We were second but he had marked the first dummy even though it had already been retrieved, where I threw our dummy was only 2 yards to the left of where the first one had landed but the first dummy had already been retrieved. He ran down and went to the area the first (already retrieved) dummy had been and then continued to search to the left of the area, now when he did that I just assumed that he would turn back once he caught his dummies scent which he did eventually after about 5 mins, but I was told when he orginanally started hunting on the left I should have stopped him then and there and sent him to the right where his dummy was. As he had ran out about 7 yards the wrong way (to the left) before he started hunting back and he winded it.

Will try and explain it here, all the retrieves were done in grass about 50cms tall.

.................................(1st already retrieved dummy)............................


xxxxxxxxx(his dummy)............................................ ............................ ..... he was hunting over there ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------->


...................................I'm up here on the hill.


Have just looked at that diagram and not sure if it's possible to really make it any clearer, wish I had it on video but anyway as I was saying I struggle to think when is the right time to intervene, should I wait about 10 seconds and just as he starts to cast out should I stop him then and then direct him back to where it is ? And I want to make sure I am stopping him at the right time and not when he HAS caught it's scent and is just trying to work his way back to it, because if he does and I have blown the stop whistle I will get ignored. But I think I'm making a problem here out of that scenario. I'll be able to explain it better when I get a video. I just wish I had more experience and that I could read my dogs body language a bit better !


I love all those ideas ! I've been writing out a bit of a log and what I want to do so I know I have something to refer back to if things go a bit pearshaped

I should get one done anyway so that I can have something to refer back to as part of my training log and so that other people can see too, even if they say they are nosey

Hi again

Well look what a bit of reading and explanation can do

Now I´ve finally got it (I hope ) Sorry

It does. Very much so. Thank you

I dont think its such a big prob, but of course something you have to work on.
When out there its team work, so you need to able to read him and support him when necessary.
After you´ve explained the incident earlier I now understand and my answer will be a bit diff.
He did break from a stop and he shouldnt be allowed. But since you werent able to stop him before picking up the dummy, theres nothing you can do about it. Except try not to make same mistake again
What you explained does make sense and I believe if you trained your marks more both you and him will be more confident in them. To help him out first, use the command "mark" and make sure he watches the dummy land. Then send him. Make him connect the command "mark" with "flying dummies" and make them harder and more as you get better.

When you send him out on marks, he should be able to pick them up by himself without you helping out - if he has marked them right. Let him take his time and support him verbally ("yes, yes" - or silence when wrong) but apart from that no help. Give him the time needed to begin with and watch him get faster and quicker as you go by

I think some of the reason might be him getting worked up? If that is so, try to calm him down so he doesnt get overexcited by the look of a dummy and loose concentration.
Let me know if you need exercises for that as I´ve dealt with this myself (and still do )

I get what you´re saying (or so i hope. Let me know if I didnt ok)
From what I read theres two mistakes in what happened. He didnt mark your dummy properly and still had the last one in mind. And you didnt send him out good enough.

Make sure you´ve got his full attention before throwing anything. And use the command "mark" as described above. If it takes 5-10 min. for him to relax and just watch you - let it! He needs to pay attention to what you want him to mark. He needs to be able to block others out aswell.

And when you send him, make sure his eyes are following the way you tell him to go. If necessary, move a few feet to another side, step forward, back whatever. But if theres any doubt that he will run in sended direction, correct him before you send him. Watch him, his eyes and his bodylanguage and you´ll see if he´s going the way you intended.
Make it as easy and as obvious to him exactly what you´re asking for.

You cant set a time limit on when to intervene
If he has scent you deff shouldnt. And you´re very right that he will ignore you if try stopping him while he has scent. I dont think he is obedient enough yet so you can break him from that.

I think you need to trust yourself (and him) a bit more. And dont rush things. So what if the next dog retrieves it in 0,5 seconds? As long as you and your dog gets it and gets it done right, theres no rush
As you said it yourself, dont make problems out of nothing. You´re doing great and you said it yourself: he has changed to the better allready

You´ll needs lots more training and you´ll have lots more setbacks before its finally there. But it will be. I promise
While you train the stop command as explained in a previous post, use the time to go watch your dog. Its very clear when they´ve got scent, when they´re waiting for your next move and the small peaks the give you out of the corner of their eyes are worth gold. And the videos are great to watch yourself too. So many things are hard to pick up on when its happening, but after its so clearly. Use the videos you make to observe your dog and get to know his signs. that way you´ll be able to spot them next when you´re out there and he needs you

So guess theres nothing left to say than keep it up, trust yourself and your dog and take it easy You´ll get that trophy when you´re ready

Thanks for going through it all and giving me advice, it helps a lot to get a different perspective plus I really enjoy doing these activites with my dog (despite the troubles were having ! ) and it's great talking to other people about it !

Went out with the dogs last night and did a 'back to basics' session, heelwork, look at me, etc etc Did a few retrieves as well, although all were in deeper and longer heather but only 15 yards away, to work on him marking. We did one mark in long heather and he was great, so I left it there. Did some more stops as well and he was listening. The main aim I suppose was I wanted him listening and paying attention to me, and I set all the excersizes up so they were easy and there would be very little chance of conflicts.

It went really well I only did probably 15 minutes worth but he was great, so that's my task for the next week I think, doing things back to basics a bit to just get him working with me and looking again, and when it's really in his head after doing it about 50 - 100 times, and there's no errors then I'll start going on, I dont want to fall back into the bad idea of moving on to fast and giving him the opportunity to get something wrong as it'll confuse him and get him thinking he can work on his own again maybe.

Got training tonight, I'm going up with my instructor, which I'm excited about, although it's the first time that I've ever been to these classes, I'm going with the dog but I dont think I'll be doing all the excersizes as I want their advice and just want the opportunity to see the other dogs working, they'll be of all levels. So that will be interesting !

Will do a full report for you tmw amts

Willow x

Well ... We discovered both strengths and weaknesses.

Strengths

1 Keen ... Very Keen ! As soon as we got out of the car he was VERY excited and new what we were there for when he saw the other dummies and dogs out and about.

2 You can’t fault his retrieve at all, I did get a lot of flattering remarks, which was nice, and He was the only dog that came back, sat and held onto the dummy without spitting it out! Because he was taught the retrieve like how I read Shadow Boxer teaches there. He was taught Hold before being sent out for a retrieve.

Weaknesses

2 He's a sqeaker

3 When excited he doesn’t 'do' heelwork, well he does it a bit but not that well, I did a lot of turning back to keep the attention on me and he calmed down a bit but he was very worked up at seeing the dogs run out for the retrieves and he wasn’t allowed to go until he was quiet.

4 It was the first time he had seen such a large number of dogs together at a training session so that must have been a contributing factor. He does get himself very worked up. The ‘watch’ command was there but only for a fleeting moment. It would have been too much to ask for him to sit and stare at me anyway whilst any dogs were doing their retrieves as it was all too exciting. Something else to practice.

First training exercise was a walk up; I said I wouldn’t do it. I thought to myself, if I expect him to walk at heel whilst other dogs get sent out, I’ve got no chance. So he was at heel (well sort of! ) with the lead on during the walk up. When he was getting excited at the first dog, I turned and walked him away, this is what I have done in the past but this time, he was getting worse when I started to walk away. Towards the end of the evening though I found how I can stop him whining, just by placing a hand on his chest and running a hand down it, keeping him calm. Anyway getting back to this, the walk up was for marked retrieves to start of with, it was in a massive paddock (wish I owned that farm it was lovely!!) with quite long grass, next walk up which we did straight after was to teach the dog to run into the sound of the gun (I mean to run in the direction of the gun after you’ve sent them) in effect it’s a blind with a gunshot. Everyone did this one and by this time he was quiet so I asked if I could have a go, but with a mark. I’d rather go down a step and get it right then go up to the same level as the others (lots of dogs did struggle with this though) and get it wrong. He marked it and was out like a bullet, must have been all that energy he was working up !, over shot it ever so slightly, but winded it straight away and found it. So I was very happy with that

Next was a direction retrieve.


Dummy here …………………………..dummy thrower……………………other dummy












……………………………………….me and the dog…………………………………

The idea was to send the dog for the first thrown and then the second, we have done this loads of times but this time he went to the one on the right ! Wrong one ! I think I may have just been too relaxed thinking we’ll do this, and didn’t give him a strong enough signal. Anyway went in closer and did it again, this time he did it fine. So I think that was my error

Next was a blind retrieve at the base of a hedge, with a distraction. Again I waited until last, but he wasn’t confident going out and kept looking at me he did go to the hedge I was saying yes yes as he was going out, and when he went the wrong way I stayed quiet, he eventually looked back and lay down !! This is from working trials when he was sent out to a hedge or a fence and then laid down. Oops !

So he came back and we did a mark to where the dummy was, So we went in closer. (The starting distance was 60 yards) until we went into about 40 and then he was sent in and he found it. To get the blind, on his way back there was another dummy thrown (no gun shot) in the exact same place, after he gave me the dummy I sent him back to get the blind but he wasn’t sure, because to his knowledge he had already picked the dummy up that was out there, I went in closer again but he didn’t want to go, so I kept sending him back until he got to the hedge, then he winded it and it was funny to see The doubt turn to ‘Oh she does know what she’s talking about’, and he brought it back with a very happy wagging tail

I was told, if you do something and it goes wrong when training, don’t give up, stay on it and keep doing it, until you get it right. If something does go wrong with me, then I tend either to give up and try again another day, or try again and do it simpler.

After that we did a water retrieve, well there was a large stream that they had to cross as there was a marked retrieve just on the other side of the bank, water plus a retrieve = BIG EXCITEMENT so he whinged quite badly here But he was made to go last as reward for him being quiet on watching the second to last dog doing a retrieve, he marked it well and brought it straight back, but because with water I still stand about 4 strides away from the bank of the river or lake, I stayed in close to him when he was coming out, he gave me the dummy without shaking but it was my fault again and it slipped from my hands.

That’s it really, it was great to see other flatcoats working there, there was one lab that kept looking to it’s handler as it was going out on a mark, because it kept looking back then going again it was like it was spinning the whole time going out ! It was quite amusing.

So that’s what happened, I had forgotten how he whinges so much when he’s excited, so that’s ANOTHER thing to work on … oh well there’s always something and no dog is perfect !

Willow x

Hi again. Soz I havent been on the last days. Been quite busy

Read your post and it sounds like we have similar dogs

Its good to know the strength and weaknesses. You need to know to be able to get on and correct what needs to be

The kean thing is so great and what I want in a dog. Its so much easier to teach them to calm down a bit than the other way around. And that they like the work is priceless.

But I must say I teach the retrieve another way. Varios ways work and the important thing is what works for you and your dog

The sqeaking is really bad and will cost you points in the trials
If continued you will never be able to get to the higher level of trials, but will be disqualified right away.
That has to be stopped asap. What way will work for you I cant say (I really need some videos ), but some are succesful with ignoring the dog and not carry on working til the dog has calmed down and are quiet. Others will punis the behavior right away - a stern "NO" or a tap on the nose might do the trick. Whatever you decide and think will work, you have to make it stop asap!

About the heel etc when excited? Well, I had a bouncing and jumping dog for some time Not kidding, she would jump higher than my arm beside me. Constantly looking at me but who can take such dog seriosly
I stopped it by the minute she started the "deer walk" I simply turned around and walked away from the fun Did not return before she had calmed down and walked where and the way I wanted her to.
Took some time to get her to understand but she did. And now she "only" shakes when excited

About your "4". You´re right about adjusting the exercise to what he can cope, but while it isnt your turn, its a great oppertunity to train "calm" with him.
Get him down stay beside you, or as Ally prefers it, in front of you. Nothings going to happen so he might aswell learn to relax and sleep, watch whatever he wants as long as he´s calm and stays.

Use the class to train what you cant on your own After all, the class is both a test to see what you have worked on the past week is something he understands and are able to, and also a possibility to train what you cant do on your own.


Well done on your first exercise We train the walk up by all walking in straight lines, and when the gun goes off all dogs are to be sitting and mark. We take turns to get the objects and all not working dogs most remain calm. But no one really knows when they´re up so you have to be on your toes all the time. Its really exciting

Your second exercise is what I would call a triple mark. Something you will be doing at the trials you soon will be ready for
The tough part in what you were supposed to do, is that your dog always will remember the last thrown
Therefore you need to be really certain that he knows and understands the send out and that your signals to him are very very very clear.

Another great exercise is to throw distraction dummys.
Picture you have him beside you. You throw a dummy straight out as a normal and now easy send out. Before you send him, you throw a dummy in front of him to the left or the right. He needs to ignore that and go for the straight ahead.
You do that by make sure he´s focused on the one straight ahead. Make sure his eyes are on the one you want him to get. His body is pointing in the right direction and that your arm clearly is pointing out the one he should run for. Later, when he can do this, you throw harder and harder distractions dummys. And even later, you throw tons of them on his way in and he´ll ignore them But easy now, thats for later. Just so you know, you´ll get this on trials too and I think thats why "the clock" is an excellent way to teach send outs.

After reading more and more of your replies, I strikes me that you might be a big part of your probs with him?
You descriebe yourself as very insecure, not trusting him, afraid you maybe wont be as good as the others in your class, convinced he will fail infront of others etc.
Correct me if i´m wrong but thats really how I read it

I think you could really use that you started trusting yourself and your dog more Easier said than done I know, but you have a good dog. He´s willing to learn, eager to please and loves the work.
And you know what to do. What to work on and your goal. And it seems you work hard on it. You care about this and spends both time and energy on this and thinks about what and hopw to do it.

Maybe its time we made a "you can do it and you´re doing great" thread for you? No seriosly, try put all those bad thoughts off. If you are convinced he will fail at classes - he will
Trust him and trust yourself

I think you have hit the nail right on the head there !

I am my own worst enemy ! Or as my friends call me a bit of a 'Nervous Nelly' I do need to work on my own confidence a bit, (in life and in work as well ) but you are very very right about if I'm convinced he'll fail then he will. I learnt a big lesson about that in the test I did those few weeks ago, I learnt just how much tension my dog picks up off me.

Will do some more videos soon I promise ! I didnt do any this weekend as yesterday was just a relaxing walk with some friends and today we decided to just to a 'fitness' day with a relax in the afternoon, this is getting away from gundog stuff a bit, but I said on the day of the test he was exhausted and is lately gettin puffed quite easily, at the training day as well he was panting heavily, OH and I thought we'd get him fitter, so today out came the bikes and we went for a 5 mile ride, (I'm VERY unfit myself so it was a get fit excercise for me and the dogs ) both dogs were going at a good pace along side both of us, when I say good pace they were doing what I'd call a slow canter or either a very fast trot, however they did stop and sniff at a few places so there was the odd sprint to catch up to us, we stopped halfway and gave them a drink and I noticed that even though the flatcoat had flopped down after 15 mins he was back to his normal rate of breathing and not at all worn out it seemed ! So we went back and by the time we got back to the car he was panting heavily again but quite happy, when we got home I thought he'd fall asleep but he was like he hadnt been on such a long fast run ! My only conclusion is he get so worked up he has all this extra energy in getting excited at seeing the dummies and the other dogs that he wears himself out quickly ! But anyway ...

Have got gundog training again with the normal trainer this time on Wednesday evening, now at these training times I hardly hear a peep from him, but I thought next time I go to the bigger classes again, I may not participate, but just take him along and let him watch so it may sink into his head that he's getting excited but nothing is happening. He'll only get a retrieve with me on his own if he behaves himself and is quiet. What do you think ?

Anyway tis late and I'm yawning already


Speak soon

Willow x