Hello again !

Wish the flattie would stop like that on a mark ! If I tried that with him I KNOW he would ignore me and just keep on hunting with the attitude of 'Don't interupt me when I know what I'm doing and I know best' I think I would have to spend a month doing training to get round that ! How would I train that on a mark ? As 80% of the time in the past when we've done a blind he's stopped but if he's winded something then I get the two fingers up treatment (V sign) which gets me annoyed that he's ignored me. When he's running round doing his normal thing, I'll blow the whistle to stop him, he'll whizz round, stop, sit and look at me, he always gets rewarded with a ball or a treat, but when he's on a mark I know there's no way in hell he'd stop to look back.

I thought about what you said about having eye contact before sending Ally and I noticed that I dont do that with my dog. After the dummy is thrown for a mark, he does what I call a Border Collie stare at it and he wont look anywhere but at the dummy, if I'm walking along and put a dummy down and tell him to mark it, he'll come with me and leave the dummy but he's not happy doing it, but still he will do it, but the whole time he's at heel he will keep looking back for it.

So today I tried a new excercise to get him to look at me before he got sent.... tell me what you think

I have a 6ft lead and so there was no chance of any conflict, I sat him in front of me and walked out to the length of the lead with him facing me and I did 'the clock' but only had two dummies, so I thew one behind first only about 6ft behind him (I had him on the lead so he couldnt run in) and one the right of him (again 6ft away) so it looked like this ....

X (dummy)




X(dummy) Dog ------lead------Me



After the first dummy (behind him) was thrown he only looked half way back to me, the second one was thrown (right one) and he sat ready to speed off, he still wouldnt face me though he kept facing the right one, it was like he kept watching the right one but had an eye on the back one as well. We have done the clock exercises before so he knows what is expected of him, but this time I wanted him to look directly at me before I sent him, I told him the watch command which he has been taught, but he kept staring like he was before, so I kept quiet and just waited, within 2 minutes he faced me with a look of 'Well what do you want me to do?' as soon as he faced me I clicked and sent him back so the retrieve was his reward, he ran straight back and got it, that was a sucess. What do you think of it ? Should I try something different maybe ?

Apart from doing that tonight, we also did a few marks in cover (we were on tracks but I put the dummy in heather to the side like you suggested before) and he did that great ! We did it double the distance of that video.

After the two marks we did a blind retrieve with him at the same distance of the two marks and he shot out and got it without any problems ! So I was very happy with that

Apart from that, the new car is Great ! Will get some pictures up tmw of it.

Ok that's the latest instalment ....

Speak soon
K x

PS When I said I dont have a sound card on my computer I meant at work where I looked at the video's, I do however have a sound card at home so I can enjoy the video's again at home but with the sound

LMAO , yeah, thought you were a bit of a prima donna

Hi Willow :smt039

Had a crazy weekend so didnt get on here. Soz

The needs to be corrected imo. It isnt up to him and working indepently should only be done when asked to.
You need to teach him the stop signal so he knows it by heart before doing so though.
How did you teach him the stop signal?
At what distances can you stop him? (have you moved forward to fast?)
How do you correct him if he doesnt stop when told?

A great way to train the eye contact exercise is to put a lead on your dog at first. Make him sit in front you and ask for contact. I use my dogs name, but you can use whatever you want. When its looking, you praise.
When you can make that and your dog has understood that, move on to walking backwards with the leed still on. That way you can correct it with the lead if he doesnt look at you. Make him follow you and keeping the eyecontact.
Move on to easy exercises by having him beside you. Tell him to look and when succesful reward him with a small retrieve.
Make sure you everytime you train him keep it up.
Dont let him go anywhere without looking at you and get permission first.
Oh and command should only be told one time!

If he´s having trouble understanding the exercise or you wish to exspan it (I do this) take it in the house too.
In nice weather our doors are open, but Ally doesnt run out til she sits by the door, making eyecontact and gets the "ok".
I dont let her eat til she looks at me and get the "ok".
Show him a toy and make him get the eyecontact before handing it to him...etc.

And no dog is happy to leave a dummy outthere Its supposed to bring it so its all wrong in their minds.
Just try to show him where you drop it, but dont drop it just under his nose. Theres no need to do that and he´ll get frustrated and you possible end up with a conflict.
If he´s too worked up about it, take him out with you but let him stay 2-5 metres behind while you go drop it.
Slowly walk back to him and return to the spot

By your drawing it wasnt the clock you were doing...
As I´ve said before, the way you placed the dummies works for some, but imo too many ends up having conflicts with their dog that way
But the waiting til he made eyecontact helped and if you start up by the exercise mentioned above he´ll know what to do in no time

Cant wait to see your dogmobile - get those pics up

AM

Oh just a tip, dont let your dog get sick of the retrieving. Make sure you take days where you dont retrieve but do some OB, search whatever.
And please ask if I´ve explained something you dont get.
It is hard to do so in writing

Hello !

Well yesterday went out somewhere totally different, (had to take the car out for a long test drive ! ) And where I took them to do some training was a massive meadow in the South Downs (South England) The flattie has never done work in cover that was as thick or as long as this, so I only did easy things as I didnt want any conflicts

It went quite well ! He did a blind retrieve that was in some cover but he definately had to use his nose and he did stop when told, which I was very very happy with, he was working with me a lot more instead of a bit independantly which he used to do (I say used to because we are now rectifying this !! ) Each time before he went for a retrieve he was to look at me, only way I could do it was by getting his ball and showing it to him then bringing it up to my face, he followed it and as soon as he was looking at me, he got praise. After a few retrieves he got the idea and was looking at me more easily, still needs a bit of work but he's getting there. He always has to look at me before his dinner anyway, I've always insisted on that. Will do some more round at home though as I think it's a great idea you've got

The stop signal ... this is going back to working trials again, he used to be sent out in a line to something and I started to say down, then introduced the whistle later on, after a few weeks with the whistle though I never insisted on the down, and just wanted him to stop and sit, although I was a bit naughty and lazy and was rewarding him for just stopping. I went on from there really into gundog training just thinking he knew the stop, how did you teach it ?

I know a common method here for puppies is to blow the whistle round the house say and have a piece of food with you as a reward for a sit, and to blow the whistle as a sit before dinner (both my dogs have to sit and wait for dinner anyway) but I've never done the whistle before dinner, as I said it's one method I've read about to teach a youngster. Would love to know how the Dane's teach it though

I think if I was to try and stop him before a mark, that would be moving way to fast anyway, I have a bad habit I think of trying things to soon before we are ready

As a correction if he ignores me on the stop, normally though if I'm going to try and practise a stop, I have my husband near the dummy so if the dog ignores me the dummy is whisked away before he can get it so there's no retrieve. If he manages to get to it before we can get it away, then I take it off him but there's no reward and nothing said. I'm starting to wonder if I need to be a bit firmer though

Hope that all makes sense

Will get some pics up of the new car up tonight hopefully

Willow x

Just an afterthought, so the dog doesnt always associate my husband being near the dummy with a stop we do do a lot of retrieves with the dummy near him so he doesnt always run out and think he either has to stop or that he wont be able to have it.

Ok I need a vacation :smt022 :smt022
Logged on this morning and wrote an reply and somehow its gone. I must have either chosen "preview" and nothing more or made some other stupid mistake.
I really think I need a holiday

Anyway, what I wrote was that it really looks like your work is paying off now
I think it sounds like you´re on right track and your afterthought is great. I totally agree with you - I´s also take it a step further and throw some dummies myself so he´ll get used to you moving and him not going til he´s told

There are varios ways to teach the stop signal.
I had Ally on lead and whistled her down on walks by stopping and showing her my palm (talkshows - mirror - sort of same thing ).
I then did it heeling, then let her run as she pleased but still close to me and slowly moved further and futher away til I knew she understood the command. Then I sent her for a dummy by the fence, like in the video and stopped her, first close to me, than further away.
I never stop her on recall as it imo its silly to risky spoiling that.

Btw; talked to some FT spaniels ppl yesterday and they told me they often use the hi lost command. Like me they had not heard of retrievers ppl using it (dont you just love how I label ppl after what dogs they own ).
Their explanation was, as I said earlier, their dogs works much closer to the handler and therefore they can better vocally work them.
We, on the other hand, are better off with whistles
But it can be diff in countries and you know theres just as many opinions to how to work your dog than handlers.

I will make some more videos´for you and if you want anything in particular that will help explain my, sometimes pretty bad, explaining in writing just let me know

Hope this get posted now

Morning !

Well the dogs had a day off on Monday, and we just went for a really long walk (am getting his fitness back up and it'll help in my weight loss too )

Yesterday I went into some woods and did some training in there, only about two or three retrieves as I'm now keeping it short but simple, and everything is thought through to see that it'll be straight forward for the dog and so we dont get any conflicts

Yesterday was brilliant, I came away a very happy person, I did a blind along a fence where there was a slight track but I put the dummy in some heavier cover than normal, it was about 70 yards. Sent him out and he was out like a shot (he's looking at me now !! ) he did over run it slightly but then winded it and slammed the brakes on and found it nicely, I love to see the tail wagging really fast when he's hunting for the dummies. So I left it there for that blind as he did it well, and did a few marks in the wooded area at a distance with my husband throwing them in, again about 75 yards away and he found them after a short hunt, it was in quite thick bracken but he found it in reasonably quick time.

We've got training tonight actually and I dont know what we'll be doing there, but will come back and let you know what we have done and how bad or good we were !

xx

PS I write messages out sometimes and then loose them as well So you not alone.

Sounds great Willow
You´re doing great and your work is paying off :smt023

I´ll look forward to hear how training went

Well after Last night, I have much more hope for our next test ! I’m not going to be put off from last fortnight’s disaster

Training went really well, we had one small problem but that was my fault and after it was explained to me I can understand why. We had done a marked retrieve down into a small valley and there was an ever so slight wind, the dog marked it but not very well, he ran down and went to the spot where a dummy had been only 5 mins before but had already been retrieved (we were taking turns) and he went downwind, but had the scent and was working his way back to it, I tried to stop him
(little b*stard ignored me) when he was facing the other way, but he had already winded it and was right on it, my trainer explained to me that I should have been watching him and reading his body language better and stopped him sooner before he had winded it, as logically I shouldn’t have stopped him when he had winded it, as I had let him get on out and start to hunt the wrong way before he winded so I should have stopped him then and there and sent him back. I don’t know if that makes sense, if it doesn’t then I’ll explain it a bit better, but at the time and when it was done it make a lot of sense to me.

We went to some where completely new and I didn’t even know existed that’s only 5 mins away ! It’s a lovely mixture of woods, heath and long grass for cover complete with some small hills. So there’s a great variety of training ground within 9 acres or so. It’s a local common which is kind of hidden away.

Apart from that small problem though the rest of the session was great, we did some other marked retrieves and two blinds (all at a bigger distance than we normally train, but what we have been doing since this thread started up ) and he did it all really nicely and I was very pleased with him. We didn’t disregard the issue of him ignoring me like he did before, and did some distance stops and I’m insisting on the actual SIT now, not just the stop and look at me like I was doing before. He did stop when there was a blind out there and he was paying attention to me. Which was a lot better than a few weeks ago, he worked with me and didn’t start to hunt til I gave the lost command where as a few months ago, he would have started to hunt when he decided. After a bit of a chat with my trainer at the end of the session, the main chunk of training that we have to do now is the handling and getting him working with me, instead of using his own mind. He’ll have to unlearn the habits of working trials a bit (although there are loads of dual purpose dogs out there that do both working trials and working gundogs) I don’t have the experience to try and do both, and it doesn’t bother me. By saying that he’ll have to unlearn the habits I mean from when he used to do the search square ( if you don’t know what that is, it’s a square 15ft by 15ft with items hidden in there that the dog has to find of it’s own accord and retrieve them in a certain amount of time to find them) he was doing that on his own without me telling him to hunt or take directions. He was left to his own mind to find them and retrieve them, where as now I’m telling him when to look. So I can understand it’ll take a little while for him to come back to me and work with me, but what makes me really happy is the fact that we’ve only been doing a few weeks worth of more exercises to get him to look at me and work with me and trust me and they are already working ! It’s great to see them paying off, we have a long way to go, but I’m excited about it, I will compete in a test and get a placing even it takes years !

Just wanted to say a big thank you amts for replying to my post as it’s given me a lot of confidence again and it’s been great getting advice and tips from you, hope this continues and we get some more people interested in gundog work !

Anyway enough of my rant/ report, will do some more retrieves this weekend and put them on video for you, complete with pics of the new car, just haven’t had time to do it this weekend.

Willow x

Hi Willow :smt039
Glad you´re keeping spirits up.
When´s the next trial? Its great you´re making progress again, makes it all worth it doesnt it

Some things you write makes me think though. Maybe its the languge, maybe its me (I am blond remember lol).
But in order to talk about it and maybe even give a decent reply, I have to make sure I fully understand.

So he marked a dummy allready been picked up?
How many dummies was outthere? Did he have a fair chance to remember?
I see him retrieving a dummy that sadly enough was found by another before him as ok. If you send him on a mark he will go for the one he remembers.
If it was a send out you would have been able to point out where to go and helped him. But he actually got it anyway and thats very good imo

Dont ever give out commands you arent willing to follow up on if he doesnt respon. Now your trainer is right about reading your dog, but never ever tell him to do something and then not make sure he actually does it......
Hopefully this was a one-timer, but maybe some stop commands at home the next few days to make sure he gets it and doesnt fool you?

I´ve discovered places like this too. Its just great. I take Ally in my car and just drives of some weekends. Not knowing where we´re heading. And suddenly I find the best places and its just....brill to say the least

Have you noticed they wont make as much "trouble" when they get to run more and think more? I have and its helped me. Its like the too easy ones will set their minds on "fun games" And remember the flat land? Well, there you have (some of) it

I disagree with deviding what you have been doing and what you want to do with him like that.
Take the exercise mentioned above.
I take it you have learnt him when the square stops?
That will come in very handy when searching on trials and you know where the dummy is. I did the same exercise with Ally in puppy class and I think its worth gold now

What I do these days (2-3 times a week) is to send her out close to me on a search. Theres nothing out there but she doesnt know that. When she goes to far of I get her attention and incourage her to search closer to me.
When she isnt looking I´ll throw the object wanted to be found and bingo! One happy dog. She has allready searched that area but didnt find anything. Yet I told her something was there and was right. My dog thinks I´m smart Besides, she has learnt that by taking my help she will find it. She hasnt found it on her own, but when listening to me she will. And no object can be found before she listens as I decide when I throw it, so she´ll have no succes with searches on her own.

Also placing dummies before a send out without him seing will teach him that going out on his own he´ll get nothing. But by listening to you he´ll get his reward

And you dont have to thank me I enjoy to have have someone to talk to about this.
We are a rare species on here, but maybe more will join when they see we arent that bad ppl after all

Looking forward to seing your pics and videos and speak soon

AM

This thread is really helpful and that is a brilliant piece of advice! Wish I'd known it when Woody was younger, it would've worked a treat!
Have to remember it for the future!