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Luke
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09-01-2007, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Evie View Post
I haven't read though all the replies in this thread, so forgive me if my question has already been answered.



So if you have a dog that is docked, that you also work; You will not be allowed to show it? Is that correct?
To my knowledge no, there will no longer be a place for dual working/show dogs. Which, imo, is a great shame and a tad confusing, i allways thought dogs were judged on the breed standard..and they had to come as close to the breed standard as possible, and its common knowledge most..infact ALL of the working/gundog/pastorl/terriers etc are still supposed to be able to fullfill their original purpose. Therefore A) The dogs that are still used for the breeds original purpose will NOT be able to be shown. and B)The fact that a breed of dog is still meant to be able to fullfill its original purpose, when in many cases, having a full tail and performing this original purpose would be impossible. Which leads me to think..if all show dogs will be with full tails, could these dogs perform their original purpose correctly?
In some cases I would doubt it, therefore surely if a breed could not (regardless of if it actually does) perform its original purpose then the dogs original function, which helped in 'setting the guidelines' for the breeds conformation (such as heights, weights, builds etc), has been lost?
I have rambled on the above but i hope you get the jist of it.
The fact showdogs will no longer allowed to be docked, makes me see a great divide coming..different registration societys etc setting up for working gundogs, terriers etc..bit like the ISDS with Collies/Working Sheepdogs.
Then again, maybe that wouldn't be an alltogether bad thing...
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Mahooli
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10-01-2007, 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by Carole View Post
I thought you could still show docked dogs, docked before the law comes into force and its only the dogs after the ban comes into place that are affected
Sorry that's that I meant dogs docked AFTER the date the law comes in are not able to be shown, any docked before that are OK.
Becky
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Mahooli
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10-01-2007, 09:57 AM
You will be able to show dogs docked after the date but only at shows where members of the public have to pay an entrance fee, so really all the big champshows. Small breed shows you should still be able to show them as long as no-one has paid an entrance fee to get in.
Becky
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megan57collies
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10-01-2007, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
You will be able to show dogs docked after the date but only at shows where members of the public have to pay an entrance fee, so really all the big champshows. Small breed shows you should still be able to show them as long as no-one has paid an entrance fee to get in.
Becky
I thought it was the other way round. Dogs docked after the date CANNOT be shown where the public pay an entrance fee ie, crufts (hence the uproar over the gamekeeper classes) and some of the champ shows, and most of the open shows.


Can i just ask out of interest, apart from having the freedom of choice taken away from them. What is the main argument from those who have docked breeds that don't traditionally work in this country ie, rottis, dobermans etc. I would just be interested as I have many friends with rottis etc, and none can give me a reason apart from that's the way they like them. Where as the main argument from the Gundog parties is the tail and damage incurred whilst working. This would not be the case in rotts etc. Also in regards to the removal of the front dew claws, mainly this is in the showing side. In most areas of Europe these breeds are now shown with tails. I would just be interested to know from those non-gundog breed owners as I can at least see the argument from those that work their dogs ie damage.
Your opinions please
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Mahooli
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10-01-2007, 11:56 AM
Sorry meant to put but NOT at shows where people have to pay to get in! Thought I had oops!
Becky
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Evie
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10-01-2007, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
To my knowledge no, there will no longer be a place for dual working/show dogs. Which, imo, is a great shame and a tad confusing, i allways thought dogs were judged on the breed standard..and they had to come as close to the breed standard as possible, and its common knowledge most..infact ALL of the working/gundog/pastorl/terriers etc are still supposed to be able to fullfill their original purpose. Therefore A) The dogs that are still used for the breeds original purpose will NOT be able to be shown. and B)The fact that a breed of dog is still meant to be able to fullfill its original purpose, when in many cases, having a full tail and performing this original purpose would be impossible. Which leads me to think..if all show dogs will be with full tails, could these dogs perform their original purpose correctly?
In some cases I would doubt it, therefore surely if a breed could not (regardless of if it actually does) perform its original purpose then the dogs original function, which helped in 'setting the guidelines' for the breeds conformation (such as heights, weights, builds etc), has been lost?
I have rambled on the above but i hope you get the jist of it.
The fact showdogs will no longer allowed to be docked, makes me see a great divide coming..different registration societys etc setting up for working gundogs, terriers etc..bit like the ISDS with Collies/Working Sheepdogs.
Then again, maybe that wouldn't be an alltogether bad thing...

I think it's a real shame that working dogs (post ban) will no longer be able to enter the show ring. I agree with you Luke, it could be the start of a great divide.

It seems to me (bearing in mind I'm not experianced!) that there already is some breeds that the show dogs are no longer able preform "in the field" as well as their working counterparts; and the workers wouldn't come "up to standard" in the show ring. There are exceptions to this of course.

Not allowing working (docked) dogs in the ring will further deepen the differences I think.
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Luke
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10-01-2007, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by Evie View Post
I think it's a real shame that working dogs (post ban) will no longer be able to enter the show ring. I agree with you Luke, it could be the start of a great divide.

It seems to me (bearing in mind I'm not experianced!) that there already is some breeds that the show dogs are no longer able preform "in the field" as well as their working counterparts; and the workers wouldn't come "up to standard" in the show ring. There are exceptions to this of course.

Not allowing working (docked) dogs in the ring will further deepen the differences I think.
Your quite right Evie, the differences between field type springers, labs, pointers, cockers, even to some extent the goldens i have seen..and their show type cousins is astounding, and i do agree a lot of the show types do not look capable of doing a days work.
You see it with WSD & border collies too, to some extent with the types of GSD's too *if i am correct*, working type bedlingtons are completley different to their show type cousins also..so it is quite present in the terrier group too, although not THAT vast.
If i recall their is a different, healthier, type of basset hound too..although my memory is shaky.

I do agree, it will cause a deeper divide, independant working registrations will start up i think, the pups rgistered with such organisations won't ALL go to working homes most likely..but they would be registered as working dogs therefore elligable for tail docking.
It's just going to cause more and more of a divide and it will be 'solong' to dual gundogs/terriers etc..
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fluffybunnyfeet
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10-01-2007, 09:31 PM
I personally think it is right that post ban dogs will not be able to enter the ring, the issue with paying public and loop holes should not enter into it, its just another get out clause that pro dockers have thought up to get round the ban.

It should be clear cut, after a specified date those dogs whether imported or docked at home should not be allowed to show. The KC need to get their act together.

In case you haven't already guessed my Dobes are not docked, there is no reason too. My vanity does not extend to hacking my dogs tail off to "enhance" its appearance.

One dog does agility and is good at it because it has its tail for balance, however one has just started showing, there are two trains of thought when it comes to judging, you have judges that will give your dog a fair look and appraisal, then there are the "others" that will not even give your dog a second glance as it has a tail.

Showing, judging, docking does in my opinion STINKS, you have the die hard showing/judging fraternity that will not accept this ban at any cost.....well I have a message for those would be mutilating butchers...reap the whirllwind, the ban and tails are here to stay and you may as well get used to the fact and start judging dogs on their physical merits and not on some self assumed apathy that a dog is not worth a second look because its owner has seen fit to keep its tail.
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